DW still under attack

[schmevil]

In this week's DW News mark's posted an update on the credit card situation. Those of you who don't have, and aren't interested in paid DW accounts can scroll by, but I thought I'd signal boost this here, for members who don't follow the news comm. And hey, since the issue is our host site's stance on adult content, the update is Relevant To Our Interests.

In a repeat of last month's situation, we have once again come under attack by the same group of people attempting to extort us out of business. We've been back and forth in discussion with Google Checkout, our current payment processor, but they've decided to terminate our business relationship unless we alter our Terms of Service to prohibit all adult content.

This means that we are once again temporarily unable to accept credit cards to buy paid time for your Dreamwidth account, since prohibiting all adult content on the site goes against our Guiding Principles of free expression. We're really sorry about the problem, believe me, but we think it's important to stick to our promises to you. More than important, really: it's a requirement. We're not going to go back on our promises simply because Google and PayPal are unwilling to work with us.

We are in discussion with several alternate payment processors who share our commitment to free speech, and we will have another -- hopefully more permanent -- solution implemented as quickly as we can. In the meantime, the offer we extended the last time this happened still applies: if your paid account is about to expire, email us at accounts@dreamwidth.org and we'll extend your paid time for you.

On behalf of both Denise and myself, please accept our apologies. I know that this inconveniences more than a few of you; we will have this resolved just as soon as we are able and we will keep you informed in the weekly updates.

Comments

[jarodrussell]

This sounds like a job for CCBill.

[kijikun]

Because everyone wants that showing up on their credit card bills.

[jarodrussell]

If DW wants to host adult material, then they are an adult web site. Not to be a Scrooge, but they're not a special snowflake. DW has to play by the rules like everyone else.

[kashmirkong]

I know what you're getting at but saying that DW is an adult site if they host adult material is like saying Barnes & Noble is an adult bookstore because they sell erotic fiction.

[jarodrussell]

When B&N starts making their erotic fiction one of their biggest selling points, maybe they will.

[galateus]

Did I miss the part where Dreamwidth did that?

[jarodrussell]

I was under the impression that DW's selling point was that it welcomed a lot of the groups who LJ shut down, specifically the Harry Potter slash groups that paired off under age kids with Severus Snape. schmevil even mentions "[DW's] stance on adult content, the update is Relevant To Our Interests." So yeah, as far as I'm aware, they did kind of do that. They did it in a cheeky way, but they did it.

[3goodtimes]

It's a pretty innocuous name. I had to google it and the search results didn't come up with anything unsavory. I'm guessing porn sites use it a lot? Unless you know that (in which case, you'd be throwing stones at glass houses to criticize someone for having it on their bill) I doubt you'd think anything of it.

[lamashtar]

I just did some quick research..CCbill seems to have a bad rep with wiki reporting 100 complaints on ripoffreport (paypal and google have more than a 1000 complaints each on that site). However, one of the rebuttals by ccbill employees indicates that New Zealand is a blocked country for the company, meaning they won't process a NZ's money at all. The home site for ccbill doesn't list blocked countries, unfortunately.

A website for alternatives to paypal for adult material lists a few others, some of which come up badly on ripoffreport, but I guess you have to pay these people to process money, so I'm wondering how much Dreamwidth has spent on paypal and google already and if they can get their money back. :/

[joasakura]

I really have to applaud their committment.

It sucks that DW's being put through this. :T

[schmevil]

Yeah, this.

[twomasks]

Does DW have no legal recourse for this? At what point does this trolling become the kind of harassment they can sue over?

[schmevil]

They have legal representation, but I have no idea what the law has to say on this issue.

[joasakura]

I skimmed through the comments thread. One of the admins basically said "we can't discuss the legal actions we're looking at"

[schmevil]

That's an excellent policy, really.

[joasakura]

yeah, that kind of stuff is delicate. It wouldn't do to be discussing it in a basically open forum.

[protogarrett]

Wow... this:
"More than important, really: it's a requirement. We're not going to go back on our promises simply because Google and PayPal are unwilling to work with us."

Rock. On.

[bluejaybirdie]

OT, but I love your icon. It can express so many things. I can say "I'm so happy I can't type" or "I'm so confused" or "your argument makes no sense" or "this is what would happen if Toph had a keyboard".

[cmdr_zoom]

Motto.

[absque_setentia]

Oh yeah, I love DW ♥

[kijikun]

Okay this is really fucking hypocritical of both paypal and google check out. I mean "remove adult content" WTF? Both paypal and google check out are on PORN SITES.

It's horrifying that those "trolls" are getting away with this and that paypal and google check out are even listening to them. I'm seriously how can either site even say "adult content" when they know damn well what other places use them.

And I'm not very happy that dreamwidth seems to have the reaction of "oh well we'll find someplace else". I really hope they did point out to google and paypal that they don't seem to have a problem with other places that host adult content. Like oh livejournal and journalfen. Doesn't DA use paypal too? Or all the places paypal's 'donation jar' or tip jar buttons show up. Is google and paypal going to demand of all their client no adult content?

And yeah sorry, I'm not having something like CCBILL showing up on my credit card. And there aren't that many other web credit processes out there, that aren't going to do the same damn thing paypal and google did.

[jarodrussell]

Both paypal and google check out are on PORN SITES.

Show me one. I don't mean to be rude, but Paypal (at least) has had a history of not working with adult comics. I can name two shops, an indie publisher and a web site, that had to find other pay methods when Paypal turned them down.

[cattyhunts]

I can buy my Tylene Buck porn DVD's off of ebay and pay for them w/my PayPal account. I don't see why PayPal is being such an ass here.

[lamashtar]

I'm not getting what's offensive about 'ccbill'.

[hatman]

Second sentence of the quoted paragraph:

We've been back and forth in discussion with Google Checkout, our current payment processor, but they've decided to terminate our business relationship unless we alter our Terms of Service to prohibit all adult content.

They did fight. And they fought PayPal, too. And they're really not happy about it. But at the end of the day, if Google and PayPal decide to be stupid, there isn't much you can do about it except suck it up and move on.

You do have a point about LJ, but LJ is established. And they have shown that they will back down if pressure is applied. And by "back down," I mean unilaterally delete vast swaths of journals just for having the wrong keywords. Which is what DW is refusing to do, and I applaud them for that.

Don't know much about ccbill, but DW management has also mentioned that they're looking for a payment processing company that can handle payments from countries where credit cards aren't common. Can ccbill do that, or is it just focused on credit cards?

Whatever the case, DW management has also said that they're in negotiations with several alternative providers (whom they rightfully decline to name at this point) and will announce the results once that's settled.

[jarodrussell]

Can ccbill do that, or is it just focused on credit cards?

Pretty sure the "CC" part of the name stands for credit card. Here's the thing, though, you can get a Paypal debit card, so if DW went with something like CCBill, they could advise people who want to use Paypal...and I assume if you can use Paypal, you're in a country that can use Paypal...to get a Paypal debit card and use it as a credit card. In effect, then, DW could use Paypal.

[northstarfan]

Considering that Paypal allows people to pay for pornographic material purchased via eBay, I'd say they're being hypocritical and cowardly -- DW is no more an adult website than eBay is a porn shop.

I appreciate that DW is sticking to its guns and I hope this works out OK for them.

[lamashtar]

The trolls see it as a target. Some of the websites the 'concerned parents' are pointing at are almost certainly created by them in the first place.

It kind of makes me want to give Dreamwidth money.

[divi_d]

My thoughts exactly.

Although I'm a little more about wanting to give them money simply for demonstrating so much class and integrity, and any pity over the obnoxiousness of the trolls is kinda secondary (albeit also somewhat related).

[galateus]

At least there's a good idea of what Google is objecting to, even if the ToS violation is questionable--They've been known to just ToS merchants and refuse to say why "for security reasons."