A cover from upcoming Justice League: Generation Lost

[icon_uk]

Now, normally I'm a little dense in spotting some of the more complex or abstract forms of sexism. One of the benefits of being a regular here is that I hope I've gotten better at it...



However, in this case, even for me it's sort of hard to miss.

Courtesy of Newsarama



That's just.... all kinds of wrong....

Also a quote which reminds me why I have so little time for Judd Winick (though I know many do have time for him, and mazel tov to them)

Nrama: Another character who recently came into Generation Lost is Bruce Wayne. You've written both Bruce and Dick, and I know you've said before that Dick has a little more humor to him. How is it writing Bruce as part of the JLI, surrounded by characters who make readers laugh?

Winick: Something I've always said about Dick Grayson is that when he's fighting the bad guys out in the field, there's no joking going on. He's not quipping. As Batman, Dick Grayson knows the role he has to play. But when he's around his friends, people that he knows, he makes jokes. He's still Dick Grayson, and I treat him like that. I got to do that a lot in Power Girl.

But when Bruce shows up, it's a different thing. He's not much older than these characters, but for them, it's almost like, "Dad's home." They have reverence for him. They know what he's capable of and they know his dedication.

It's the "when he's fighting the bad guys out in the field, there's no joking going on. He's not quipping" that I think I take some issue with, Dick is still very prone to quipping IMHO, and that's as it should be; His Batman is the Batman HE created, not Bruce's Batman.

Though this is part of my dislike of Dick continuing as Batman, I'm not sure does the character THAT many favours. Aside from him having no unique identity, in groups shots of DC characters he now is less likely to appear, since two Batmen is confusing and Bruce has precedence.

Comments

[jarodrussell]

Winick: Something I've always said about Dick Grayson is that when he's fighting the bad guys out in the field, there's no joking going on.

Dude, seriously? Seriously? Which Dick Grayson Also The Batman Thank You Very Much are you writing, because I have...and I stress the paucity of my collection to exemplify the incorrectness of your statement...two B&R trades that would bed to differ with your statement. Dick may be serious in the field, but he still jokes, smiles, and has fun with the cape.

How do people who have no idea how to write comics keep getting jobs writing comics?

Judd

[nefrekeptah]

His views on a character differ from yours. It doesn't mean he "has no idea how to write comics".

[omgwtflolbbqbye]

Yea, Dick really, really, really, needs to go back to Nightwing asap.

Doesn't even matter who you are under the cowl, there's no way anyone can be anything more than "the other Batman" with Bruce back on the scene..

[turtlefu]

Why are you all so surprised? Winick is, and always has been, utter and complete shit. Everything with his name on it is shit.
One of my rules is never to read a Winick book, because the best I can get is "mild disappointment".

[shadowpsykie]

come now, other than Kevin Smith, winnick wrote one of my favorite Green Arrows ever! he's not utter and complete shit. I actually like his JL:GL run.

Mod Note

[benicio127]

Winick is, and always has been, utter and complete shit. Everything with his name on it is shit.

Please keep your focus on the body of work and not the body of person. If you need to, please reacquaint yourself with the rules.

[aeolos_sakya]

Well, to be fair, some of the stuff Winick has done before were the ones that introduced me to the comic book world.
I understand he has failed in some other things. That doesn't mean he's always been bad.

[sherkahn]

I would not put it past Bruce to use tough love on Diana to get her to remember who and what she is, when conventional means won't work.
(Like feral Wolverine remembering his humanity through martial arts combat against Elektra).

Especially if the lasso is more symbolism of forcing Diana to wake up from whatever b.s. is going on with her right now.

[alexanderlucard]

I'm pretty sure I remember Bruce Wayne cracking several subtle jokes when he was in the JLI. "Lighten up Carter. My God, you're positively grim."

[darkknightjrk]

Yeah, if he didn't make a joke himself, he was always a great straight-man. I remember one bit where one of the team-members (Mister Miracle, maybe?) hatched a plan for something and he said, "if this doesn't work, I'll eat my cape!" Of course, it doesn't work, and Batman replies, "How would you like your cape prepared?" :D

[crabby_lioness]

Dear God, WW's getting back to 1960s levels of bad.

[shadowpsykie]

covers can be misleading. I personally think that maybe Diana asks Bruce to use the lasso on her so that she can remember Max (and hopefully her real life)

[schmevil]

Entirely possible. However this cover has Bruce holding onto the lasso like it's a goddamn leash. His lips are parted. Diana struggles prettily. Come on.

[rezonantshine]

Now, c'mon. If Dick was the one tied up, people would be jizzing themselves. Equality, people!

[darkknightjrk]

Never thought I'd say this, but--Motto.

[darkknightjrk]

The cover: I'm not terribly sure I see the problem. It's a symbolic cover, implying that Wonder Woman is in some sort of peril and Batman is going to whoop some ass. Maybe I have some blinds on because just any time I see a Nguyen cover I'm just too busy going "preeeety..." to notice anything else.

Winick's description of Dick as Batman: I can half-agree, half-disagree. I think it's fair to say that he acts differently as Batman as he would as Nightwing--he's adapting the role of Batman to suit his style, but a good adaption always has the feel of the original.

Frankly, I just find it odd that he's saying that, when in his arc of Batman the whole premise of it was Two-Face figuring out that it was someone different in the cowl because he smiled and joked more often.

As for making Dick Batman hurting the character...again, half-agree, half-disagree. Yes, he no longer has his own unique identity--but, him putting on the guise of Batman definitely propelled him to an A-list character (where he was more B/C when he was Nightwing), gave him three unique titles that he stars in, each of them doing pretty well at showing who Dick is as a character more than, I feel, a lot of what I've read of his original run on Nightwing. While in the end, I would agree that he should probably gain his own identity back at some point, when Bruce doesn't need to be all around the world to set up his Batman Incorporated, I think in the end this period of Dick's publishing history will only help him as a character.

[jcbaggee]

Completely agree on the first statement. Considering the context of the story (Batman likely remembers Max Lord, Wonder Woman does not), it's safe to say a fight broke out. If anything, the lasso is a somewhat peaceful restraint as opposed to out and out violence. Don't see anything sexist here.

[karunya]

Dick: "Geez, it's about time that I got to be the tie-up-er around here."

[icon_uk]

Except the Batsymbol is wrong for Dick!Bat, that's Bruce!Bat.

[schmevil]

That's just.... all kinds of wrong....

You are correct sir.

[speedingtortoise]

. . . ok now I just feel really, really ignorant and dense because I'm not 100% grasping why this is sexist and I'm pretty sure that you've had more experience with identifying and dealing with sexism than I

Perhaps I could explain my thought process and you could explain yours?

I am looking at this cover and seeing it depicting the message to the viewer that Wonder Woman is going to be in a tight spot when she runs into Batman. Her being tied up by her own lasso conveys to me that she is going to be seriously outmatched by batman in this issue (which does seem off in terms of how powerful she is compared to Batman)

Is your main contention that Wonder Woman, a powerful female character, is being shown tied up and at the mercy of a male character? Because from what I know about Wonder Woman (which honestly isn't TOO much), she frequently ties up individuals of both genders in fights and for other purposes. I dunno, having her own lasso turned against her strikes me more as the classic idea of someone's greatest weapon being turned against them.

How do you perceive this cover?

[punishermax]

~Ollie and Dinah stand in the Justice Lounge (Now with Added Ms. Pac Man machine!)~

"Ollie, how many times do I have to say it? I wouldn't fuck any of the McDonald's characters."

"Jesus Dinah? Not even Grimace?"

"Grimace doesn't even have a fucking penis Ollie. How would our coupling even work? He'd probably just stand there...watching me....with...with those dead eyes...~shudders~"

~Suddenly the Justice alarm goes off~

"HARK! THE CRIES OF TERROR AND PAIN CALL FOR JUSTICE! THE JUSTICE....LEAGUE!"

"Clark probably just forget his key to the break room again."

"Kinda harshing my buzz here Ollie."

~They both walk to the source of the alarm. In the Justice Family Room (Now with Galaga Machine!) they find Diana. She is bound to the ceiling by her own magic lasso~

"Jesus Christ Diana what is with you and bondage?"

"Hey Ollie what's it with you and being a total fucking dick? How about we talk less and proceed in the whole "getting me down from the god damn ceiling' thing."

~Dinah walks over and tries to gte her down~

"Diana, you know I'm all about letting people do whatever they want and all but.....did you have to play your fuck game in the family room? I mean one of Hal's dates could have walked in! How would we have explained that."

~Clark walks in~

"Hey are we insulting Hal in here, sounds like a party. Also this is a good time to go over some house rules while we get Diana's BSDM antics fixed up."

"Hey Clark wanna tell everyone about that time with you, Lois, the maid outfit and me walking in on you? Fun Fact, guess who was wearing the maid outfit, the answer may shock you."

~Hal walks into the room~

"Before you guys start hearing any wild rumors I'm just gonna say that her ID was really convincing."

"Oh awesome, my humiliation just wasn't complete yet. Wonderful. Maybe my mom can walk in now. Good thing she's dead...or...what is my mom dead?"

"So any plans to tell us how you managed to truss yourself up there Diana?"

"Look, it's really embarrassing and it involves Dick."

"So there's two different ways this conversations gonna go1"

"I mean Batman"

"Aw, the less fun way."

"I was really wasted and I told him to tie me up because I had this awesome Houdini move-"

"God you are an inspiration to children everywhere Diana"

"and being wasted I couldn't really pull it off so I fell asleep and....here we are."

"It's times like this, helping my hung over Amazon best friend down from her self imposed rope trick, that I really appreciate my job as a super heroine."

[crabby_lioness]

It's sad how that's better written than anything DC's put out in years.

[jelly_ace]

I don't see, it really. And this coming from a somewhat-sensitive-to-gender issues person who happens to be a female.

[gargoylekitty]

A woman, and not just any woman but THE woman when it comes to comics, freaking Wonder Woman, in a depowered/'made-younger-by-the-work-of-a-male-writer' state being tied up and struggling in her own lasso that's being held like a freaking leash by a grimacing? smirking? idek... Batman, a character who's pretty much a poster child of white rich male privilege? You don't see that?


...try refreshing the page maybe?

[venatosapiens]

I actually don't like this cover for a different reason. It may be sexist, it may not be (I don't feel qualified to comment on it, one way or another) but man, that is not pretty art. At all. I'm used to Dustin Nguyen doing much better covers. This is just sort of frightening.

[blackruzsa]

All I really saw wrong with this cover was the high eyes and the frighteningly long bat nose.

[thanekos]

that looks like dick's just set up a new bell in the headquarters

.. and THAT sounds like something quite possibly transformative i read once

[mullon]

Looking at Batman;s face makes my head hurt. The squinting eyes makes you think he's scowling, but then he's doing that thing with his mouth. I don't even know how you do that with your mouth. And is he missing his upper lip?

[sigmund_droid]

First post! (I'll try not to immediately get banned XD)

To me there are two main aspects of this cover that make it, as icon said, wrong.

1. The Faces: As mullon said Batman's face is just...weird. It looks almost like he's enjoying himself. Wondy's closed eyes are what weirds me out with her face.

2. Batman: To be honest if it was a villian like Ares or Darkseid I probably wouldn't have as much as a problem as I do with the cover. The cover often shows heroes tied up or otherwise to display peril or suspense. In fact I think I have a batman issue on my shelf that has bats in a very similar position. The problem is that it's Batman, wonder woman's compadre that's the perpetrator. A villainous character like Ares smirking at a tied up wondy fits far better than strangely evil Batman. The latter just smells of sexism towards the big 3.

[blackruzsa]

Welcome!
Also, to your number 2:

Well, that makes more sense, I think. I mean, I still don't agree to the sexism bit, but I think I get it more.

[maxisanacorn]

Dustin generally is very sensitive to things that may upset people with his art, I feel he always treats female characters he draws with respect.

Personally, I see this more as a critique of WW current condition in the current canon. She's sort of out of comission outside of her current time warp right? She hasn't really shown up in any other comics since the soft reboot. She's "tied up".

[richardak]

I definitely see this as a sexist image: the image resembles a fisherman hoisting his catch. The implicit possessiveness is definitely disempowering for her and empowering for him at her expense. Add to the fact that she is clearly struggling, but in a totally ineffectual way, while he is easily holding the lariat with one hand, effortlessly, and I think this is a sexist image.

There's also something that bothers me about the interview with Winick, and it represents the thing I hate most about DC:

But when Bruce shows up, it's a different thing. He's not much older than these characters, but for them, it's almost like, "Dad's home." They have reverence for him. They know what he's capable of and they know his dedication.

That's the most ridiculous, idiotic thing. I hate that DC has this bizarre fetish that because characters like Batman (and they do this with Batman more than any other character) are popular with their audience, they also have to be revered (revered, seriously?) by other character in-story as well.

One of the things I loved about classic JLI was that the other characters didn't even particularly respect Batman. A couple of them said more than once that they thought he was not much better than Guy Gardner (which, in that context, was a major insult). They certainly didn't revere him.

Good writers separate their own feelings about how cool a character is from how other characters in the story would realistically react. Too many writers at DC can't seem to do that anymore.

[icon_uk]

Actually, I can see Dick and Tim as being one of the few POSITIVE things a lot of heroes would be able to see about Batman "Batman may be a complete dick (no pun intended) but Robin and Nightwing, they turned out alright so he must have SOMETHING going for him"

(sorry, had to repost as my typing sucks this morning)

[big_daddy_d]

When I think of Diana+Bruce+Lasso, what comes to mind is him usually tied up and a situation where she has him tied to a chair, her foot on his lap as she leans in and after a little taunting, ends it with "Now tell me the truth baby.."

Now, that's over, let me talk about that cover.

I see a woman in peril actually. I've seen my share of bondage/sexual photos, so this doesn't strike me as such. Plus she seems to be in pain. Looking at her arm, it looks like cuts. Deep cuts. If those aren't cuts then I will chalk that up to a bit of fail on the art. Looking at Batman's face, he just looks a bit demented, angry, cold. Which is leading me ot believe that either there's a violent fight between Diana and Bruce or Dick..idk or Max Lord is once again mind fucking people, especially considering that part of his endgame is revenge since he no doubt remembers what his ass looks like.

Is it sexist? Honestly, I can see the argument and I don't dismiss it, but in my mind, it doesn't register as such, just strikes me as, Wonder Woman in danger and there's going to be some mind fuckery going on, which regardless of what's in the issue, that cover is one of those..dark omen types so not looking forward to it. Seriously, I'm getting bad vibes here, so hoping Max doesn't get his revenge because..his karma houdini ride has gone on long enough and I would love to see her kick his ass again. In fact I want to see everyone get a piece of him the same way Tony has post Civil War (no I don't think he deserves all the blame or beat downs, but he's the best example I can think of.)

[ejne7]

This is pretty much how I read the image too. (Though on the actual cover it's clear that what looked here like cuts on her arms are actually a part of her costume.)

And, for what it's worth, (and not at all unusually for modern comics,) it has essentially no relationship to anything that happens in the issue. Bats is in there, Diana's in there, that's as close as it comes.

[hound_bound]

I think it says something about me that when I first glanced at this cover, I didn't see anything sexist because I'm so used to a cover like this featuring a sexualized face, or cleavage that miraculously escaped being covered, or a butt shot or any number of things. I just saw a scene from the middle of a fight. On second view, I do see what people are talking about. Kinda sad that I'd miss that because there's so many examples of this sort of thing being unashamedly overt...

[radioactivepiss]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. There's so much of this applied to female characters in comics you really do just... tune it out after a bit. :\