Wonder Woman #4

[superfangirl1]

Over on Paradise Island, Hera does indeed appear, resplendent in cape of peacock feathers. Knowing she has no chance against a goddess, the warrior queen bows down and asks for forgiveness. And Hera seems set to look with compassion on the weaker woman, so vulnerable to her husband's charms.

Diana finds Hippolyte, but she's in no fit state to accept an apology thanks to the departed Hera. She's been petrified, and her Amazon sisters are in equally dire straits, having been transformed into snakes.

Comments

[q99]

The part that gets me is they specifically bring up the old so that they can then retcon in the new.

It's a new universe, one can just say "this is the status quo" without mentioning the statue version at all if they aren't planning on using that origin.

That strikes me as more clumsy.

[swatkat]

I wouldn't call it clumsy - it seems to me a deliberate attempt to contradict that origin. By bringing it up, they give a plausible, in-universe explanation of why Diana now has a new origin. I'm not happy with the origin change, but they did have it make sense within the story in a way that has a huge impact on the story, I'll give them that.

[jeyl]

Sure it may make sense, but the whole thing still comes off as if it's mocking the original origin story by bringing it up to begin with. And it's not even the best depiction of Diana's origin story because it leaves out so many important elements that, believe it or not, would bring the same conclusions that Diana would have come up with here.

Hippolyte didn't simply ask for a child out of the blue while lying on a beach. She was "supposed" to have a child. She was pregnant with Diana by the time of her real world death before she became an Amazon. During the time with the Amazons, she had a longing for something she didn't understand, and once she was told what that was, she was granted the chance to to bring her unborn daughter's soul to life. It wouldn't be the same if she got pregnant again because that would have created someone else entirely, so creating something for the soul to inhabit would make the most sense. And all of this was possible not simply by one god, but of dozens who blessed her!

Conclusion:
- Diana is the real daughter of Hippolyta, blood and soul.
- A man was involved in conception, but also in both Diana and Hippolyte's death.
- She was brought back by the gods after Hippolyta discovered what her sadness and longing were coming from.
- Upon Diana being brought to life, Diana was blessed with attributes by each of the Gods.
- The clay was simply a means of hosting an existing soul, not creating one.

What this comic tries to offer:
- Diana is the real daughter of Hippolyta, blood and soul.
- She was conceived out of her mother's lust for a man.
- Father is a god who goes around cheating on his wife with anything with a vagina and leaves them to their fate when his murderous wife will kill anyone he sleeps with him.

Now, how is this an improvement?

[swatkat]

To be very honest, I don't have much investment in Perez's origin about Diana being Hippolyta's unborn child (or the Perez run in general). I liked 'The Circle' better, which doesn't really contradict Perez as such but hinges more on Hippolyta's desire for a child, which is something that really resonated with me as a reader.

She was conceived out of her mother's lust for a man.

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. (I do have issues with the origin, but coming to that in a minute.)

Father is a god who goes around cheating on his wife with anything with a vagina and leaves them to their fate when his murderous wife will kill anyone he sleeps with him.


Father is Zeus, and family members are the Olympians, which makes for excellent drama. Now, it may not be drama to all our taste, but it does have the ingredients of a great story.

My issue with the new origin is that it appears to undercut the queerness of Diana's origin, not because it has Zeus as a sperm-donor, but because it no longer emphasizes on Hippolyta's desire to have a child, which is was so strong that it fashioned the finest woman you'll ever see out of clay. Furthermore, it opens up the Wonder Woman mythos to Daddy Issues Drama which, in the hands of a lesser author, could lead to much horror. I do not see it as a 'mocking' of the old origin - just an attempt on the author's part to work with both and make in-universe sense of the retcon.

[jeyl]

"Father is Zeus, and family members are the Olympians, which makes for excellent drama. Now, it may not be drama to all our taste, but it does have the ingredients of a great story."

As I've stated before, all I know of Zeus is that he's this guy who has the powers to get women to sleep with him, and he outright abandons without even pondering on their well being. After all, his wife not only kills them, but their family, friends and even their farm animals. Zeus is not coming off as a character who makes Diana's new origins more interesting. As far as I'm concerned, the Olympians are probably just as much a**holes as he is.

If you're going to go on about what kind of a God Zeus was, skip it. If it's not in the comic, it's not worth bringing up. I shouldn't have to go research greek mythology or whatever Zues is from to have an appreciation for why he's now the father of DC's top female character. Because all I'm seeing here is that Wonder Woman doesn't work unless she has a father. PERIOD.

[swatkat]

I... really have no intention about going on about what kind of god Zeus is, or what the new origin is bringing into the story - it should be self-evident. In my opinion, it is bringing in some interesting aspects to Diana's story, and therefore, I'm following the storyline despite my reservations about it. If you don't see it, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

[jeyl]

"I... really have no intention about going on about what kind of god Zeus is, or what the new origin is bringing into the story - it should be self-evident."

Daddy issues.

"In my opinion, it is bringing in some interesting aspects to Diana's story"

Daddy issues.

"If you don't see it, we're just going to have to agree to disagree."

I've seen daddy issues before.

[golden_orange]

"I've seen daddy issues before."

Has to be said, though -- just because 'daddy issues' has been done before (and yes, granted, quite a lot) doesn't mean it can't be done in an interesting way here.

It's obviously not to your taste (and based on our previous discussions I doubt that's going to change) but just because it's been done before doesn't mean it can't be done again well; otherwise, by that logic no story could ever be told.

[jeyl]

Oh, I have no qualms with daddy issues in general. I guess I'm just tired of seeing it in all my movies.

Dare Devil = Daddy issues
Ghost Rider = Daddy issues
Batman Begins = Daddy issues (His mother doesn't even do anything)
Super 8 = Two daddy issues (Mothers have either abandoned their families, or are dead)
Green Lantern = Three daddy issues (No mothers seen, mentioned or acknowledged. I think the fathers reproduced asexually)
Star Trek = (Mothers were either written out of the story or used for fridges)
Thor = Daddy issues (Rene Russo gets to pick up a sword....)
Iron Man 1 and 2 = Daddy issues (Father asks where mother is? I'd sure like to know)

I'm just tired.

Also, there shouldn't be daddy issues to begin with. That'd be stupid. What the heck are they going to do?

[salinea]

This, so much, and it's not like it's just superhero movies either. I am getting tired of it.

[darkknightjrk]

"My issue with the new origin is that it appears to undercut the queerness of Diana's origin"

To be fair, though, isn't the idea that Diana was raised in a society of fiercely independent women who've lived in peace for centuries pretty "queer" in itself?

[swatkat]

That is true, and I'm very relieved that Diana's current concern is still her mother and her sisters, and not her newly discovered daddy, as tends to happen in a lot of stories. And the Amazons have been pretty unambiguously made queer in this story (although the seeming 'man-hating' part makes me a little uncomfortable; we still need the Amazons' backstory, and I do not think being suspicious of male intruders is necessarily oh-so-terrible, but the repeated references to castration in the past few months - Flashpoint, Demon Knights, as well as this - make me uncomfortable and annoyed), with Diana herself being the target of some innuendos that should suggest the same.

[darkknightjrk]

I think the threats of castration in Wonder Woman were just that--threats, meant to deter the men trying to get to their island, and they would be perfectly happy not to have to do that if that's enough.

Plus, speaking as a guy who's rather fond of keeping my equipment, I would say that's a pretty good threat for most guys to be compliant, perhaps even better than threats of death or other dismemberment.

[swatkat]

As a woman who, er, has occasionally used that threat (mostly as a joke to very close friends, I swear - and a couple of sexually harassing assholes who deserved it), I am inclined to agree. Exoristos in Demon Knights certainly seemed to be using it as a threat to shut the racist bartender up.

[darkknightjrk]

I'm not sure if Ex counts there, since I believe in a recent interview with Word Balloon he said she may or may not be an Amazon, and that her background will be really mysterious, kinda like Wolverine was for a while.

[fifthie]

The part that gets me is they specifically bring up the old so that they can then retcon in the new.

It's a new universe, one can just say "this is the status quo" without mentioning the statue version at all if they aren't planning on using that origin.

That strikes me as more clumsy.

Yeah there really is something spectacularly self-indulgent about retconning a status quo that literally has just been massively universe-wide retconned.

[jeyl]

I think the bigger issue here that I'm certainly worried about is that this "Daughter of Zeus" will spill out into the ORIGINAL Wonder Woman stories that have already long established her original "Clay, whatever" origin story, thus where the retcons come in. Let's face it, the sales of this new Wonder Woman are good, and DC will cling to ANYTHING in a good book and over develop the heck out of it. It's just stupid that it has to be the "Wonder Woman is now fixed now because she has a father!" change.