Earth 2 #1

[superfangirl1]

Apokolips led by Steppenwolf has wiped out Metropolis and pretty well conquering Earth and in a last mad desperate gamble. The Trinity of Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman manage to free the world from the Parademon grip, sacrificing themselves in the process in grand fashion.







Five years later on the anniversary of the Trinity deaths to save the earth.





Sitting silently by himself in the woods depress by Joan words. Jay Garrick meets Mercury after witnessing him crash near by in a crater.

Comments

[jaybee3]

Aside from the killing off of the Earth-2 Trinity (doesn't it seem Diana has been killed in that same manner - from behind, with a sword before?) after hyping them complete with press-releases there's the other portrayals...

Was Joan and Jay the longest-lasting marriage in the DCU (and wasn't she a blonde when younger)? They were two characters who actually aged in real time as in the Golden Age they were very young and then aged into their 90s.

And now this - Joan's break-up sex and goodbye, loser, I'm outta here to Jay. Really, Robinson? I mean....really. WTF? If even Joan and Jay can't survive the reboot there really must be some kind of internal editorial directive vis-a-vis marriage (and its non-existence) in DC Comics.

I love Nicola Scott. But I have zero interest in this.

[darkknightjrk]

"doesn't it seem Diana has been killed in that same manner - from behind, with a sword before?"

I seem to recall something similar happening during the opening cinema for the DCU MMO--she was stabbed in the back by Deathstroke, I think.

[atom_punk]

Right here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNXe8Mw4u1A

Diana was actually electrocuted by Luthor. Superman got stabbed with kryptonite in the back though.

This trailer still blows me away when I see it.

[darkknightjrk]

Okay, I remembered a WW/Deathstroke fight, but forgot Luthor finished her off.

[quatoria]

Wasn't she also stabbed in the back in the Planetary/JLA crossover?

[thatnickguy]

Who's to say they don't get back together? Maybe he makes something of himself as The Flash and she sees the changes he's made?

[milleniumrex]

Joan and Jay are 21. It's obvious to me that part of his "Hero's Journey" as the Flash on this world will be to win her back.

Still, she definitely came off as a bit...unpleasant in this issue.

[jaybee3]

Maybe. It's weird to see them at this supposed age (younger than Hal Jordan and Barry Allen). And I actually liked the idea that was prevalent in the Golden Age where there were a lot of couples - Dian Belmont/Sandman, Shiera Sanders/Carter Hall, Inza and Kent Nelson, and Joan Williams and Jay Garrick who were helpmates and partners all the way from beginning to end.

[turtlefu]

I hate "hero's journeys" that involve "winning" a girl.

Women are not prizes for males to win or own to support their egos.

[ravenous_raven]

Motto. So much motto.

[benuben]

I'm more annoyed by the fact that THIS is the girl, that he's supposed to win.

[turtlefu]

Really? REALLY?

Think about what is going on in this page.
How are we supposed to react? Specifically, what does Robinson want us to feel?

I imagine we are supposed to think "Oh, poor Jay!" and "Joan is such a bitch!".

But that's wrong. Dead wrong. Maybe Joan is being tactless to Jay. But this is a break-up. We don't know enough about their relationship to say whether Joan's assessment of Jay is accurate, but knowing the typical DC young hero archetype, it sounds entirely plausible.

But she is a person, and young woman, who is completely autonomous. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Joan deciding to break up with Jay, because she can make her own decisions and these must be respected.

When "Nice Guys" complain about being dumped by women, and try to "win them back", they are not respecting the decisions or the autonomy of women.

[benuben]

I OBVIOUSLY have no problem with her breaking up with him. I have huge problem with the way she broke up with him. I am sure Jay may not be a very good boyfriend, but there is big diffrence, between ambitious woman, that wants to achieve something and cold, mean, careeristic (I hope that word exists) asshole. I'm sorry, but there is no way you can excuse this kind of behavior. By all means and purposes, Jay is here acting pretty politely, yet she treats him like piece of crap. How about giving him better explanation then "Look, you are a loser, I rule, fuck you."

I agree about "nice guys" thing. I just think if these "nice guys" were really dumped for such reason, why trying win these women back? How about finding women, that are actually nice too?

And you know what? I know nobody is gonna stand behind me after this, but I don't think anyone would anyway (it's okay, diffrent opinions and all), but I am just gonna say it: I honestly don't believe, that if it was Jay talking like this to Joan, any of you would defend him

[turtlefu]

no, of course not.

But, you know, the fact that career women are frequently diminished, ignored, and silenced by being labeled "cold bitches".

As for Jay acting politely, you do realize Joan actually explicitly states in the scan that this is NOT their break-up. They had ALREADY broken up, and Jay just won't leave her alone (even saying he is going to follow her). THAT IS HELLA CREEPY!

Of course not, because if Jay were talking like this to Joan, the dynamic would be different. Joan could have definitely said this nicer, but the fact is that she had a right to say it and a right to make her own decisions, she is NOT required to be with Jay just because he is nice, a view that is shockingly common in society. If Jay were talking like this to Joan, he would be an ass, but if you used the exact same dialogue, he wouldn't be a mysogystic ass.

[jlbarnett]

did Jay get the message it was a break up? Maybe for him a phone call and no civilized dinner and no break up sex would have sent a clearer message. Maybe he thinks she's simply considering distance an insurmountable with the amount of time she'd need to work and he's saying he'd make the effort

[benuben]

Ehm, no they are not. Atleast not where I live. And I can think of a lot of positive potrayals of career women.

And you do realise, based on what she said, she never actually told him they are breaking up?

How would the dynamic be diffrent? They would in exactly the same situation, only diffrence would be change of genders. So, you admit Joan is still an ass here?

I know break-ups can be very hurtful and make people say horrible things, but I would never treat my exgirlfriend like this. Even if she was so dumb to get it, I would not act like this. Sorry.

[benuben]

Just one thing I want to add: I'm basing my opinion solely on this scene. I'm more than willing to change my opinion, if next issue she call him and says something like "Look, I know I've been kind of harsh, it's just, I tried to tell you nicely, but you just didn't get it and I just wanted to end it", or reveal that Jay was a total jerk, who treated her like badly (which ain't likely).

[gamerguy]

"I imagine we are supposed to think "Oh, poor Jay!" and "Joan is such a bitch!".

Indeed, because that's what she is. Hopefully there will be no 'winning her back' storyline, because she's not worth winning. She was perfectly happy to romp in the sack with him while it was convenient for her and now that he's not convenient, he gets left on the curb like a puppy that's gotten too big for the apartment. Way to be classy, Joan.

Mod Note

[salinea]

Putting the thread on freeze while the Mod team discuss this comment.

Mod Warning

[salinea]

Hi! scans_daily is a feminist community. I encourage you to read the community rules and ethos if you're not sure what that means. Because of this we do not allow the use of gendered insults such as "bitch" in a negative manner. (In case you wonder the line you quote was not deemed problematic because the use was obviously in order to call out problematic, sexist writing. Likewise, the sarcastic use by captainbellmain below on this same post isn't an issue either.) You however chose to call a character by that word in a genuine sexist manner. Please, remember not to do it again.

This is your FIRST OFFICIAL WARNING. Please note that if you receive two further warnings you will lose the ability to post on this community.

[sistermagpie]

Yeah, what's gross here is that Jay starts out being really creepy, talking about seeing off "my girl" going off on her cute "adventure" and suggesting he'll come out to see her as if they're still going out. So her firmly telling him that they really did break up and he's not just going to ignore it and treat her like his girlfriend until she gives in makes sense.

But then she reveals that she broke up with him for terrible reasons that are wrong and make her shallow and horrible--and sound like a set up for him to Prove Her Wrong. Which is what makes it into a bit of a creepy sexist fantasy. She's a horrible person, but she should be a horrible person who wants him. Suddenly it's just all that her being a jerk and he's just being nice and supportive despite the fact that she doesn't deserve it.

[turtlefu]

See, I can understand if the WAY Joan said it is kind of mean (the fourth panel is unusually harsh).

But, she is right. Jay is creepy. He calls her "my girl" even though they have broken up, and she rightly calls him out for being condescending. Jay is not treating Joan like an autonomous, intelligent being. He is not respecting her. This is classic "Nice Guy" syndrome. And knowing everything we know about DC's young hero archetype, her reason (that she is a go-getter career person and he is a fresh out of college do-nothing) sounds plausibly accurate.

So I don't think her reasons are wrong, just the way she phrased them.

And how exactly is Jay being "nice and supportive"? He's openly condescending, and then expresses that he wants to follow her even though she tells him not to. That sounds less like supportive and more like controlling.

[sistermagpie]

He's not being nice and supportive. I'm saying that the way it's written, with his Nice Guy condescension followed by her ham-handed "I'm going to make lots of money and you're going no place, loser!" I think many readers will take that as a signal to not only see her as a shallow woman who only cares about money and misses the true worth of the superior guy she's with who just hasn't proved his awesomeness yet, but read the earlier stuff as more of the same. As if his not acknowledging that they've broken up is actually him just showing he supports her and loves her even though she doesn't appreciate it and insults him.

Iow, I think this panel is made to appeal to the Nice Guy fantasy when it detours from her criticism of his behavior here into her predicting that he's going nowhere and saying she's superior to him. I think there's probably plenty of readers who come away wanting him to prove her wrong and then dump her for being mean. As has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, she's both "the prize" and "no prize."

I got used to them, but

[eaglet_auditore]

Exactly.

And it's sad when women get downright hated for not giving themselves to the hero just because 'he worked so hard to get her'. Hey, we're not talking about a piece of bread here!

Re: I got used to them, but

[eaglet_auditore]

I'm also not sure what you guys are talking about, I haven't read it. I was just commenting on that 'winning the female' plot device-thing.