3 pages from SUPERMAN BATMAN #87

[starwolf_oakley]

These pages from the last issue of SUPERMAN BATMAN. They cover the idea that some "regular" citizens aren't happy with what Batman "did" to Gotham City.








There is something to be said about preferring untouchable mobsters over garish serial killers.

The editor is fired as Wayne Enterprises is buying the paper. Nothing can be proved other than he put a name in a dropbox.



I remember somewhere a DC editor saying Superman was the fireman. It could have been DiDio. Because Dan DiDio hates you, that's why.



Here's a link to the last page done without the word balloons:
http://blondthecolorist.deviantart.com/art/Superman-Batman-87-p20-254600654

Comments

[ensiform]

I think Batman's words here are a bunch of crap. More "dark brooding Batman is wiser than silly boyscout Superman" fanboy nonsense.

What Superman should have responded, instead of gaping like the dipshit this writer made him, was: "Yeah? There were twenty thousand violent deaths today all over the world. I hear them all, all the time. Someone's killing someone right now. I triage constantly. I go for the biggest fires, the worse crimes, and I have to let the minor ones go. But none of them are minor; every one is a tragedy. I just saved seventy people all over the world right while we were standing out here and you were talking shit. I just caught a burning plane in Tokyo while you turned your head there for a second. I blew out a fire in Chicago while you blinked just now. Who's the fireman now, assface?"

[mrstatham]

I don't think it's a particularly good showing for either character. It's far too easy to just portray Batman as holding back the tide and basically being that fireman, but the fact of the matter is that a good number of the people that torment Gotham owe nothing to him in their origins and would still basically be the supervillains tormenting Gotham. Aside from the Joker, these people would still be the same without a Batman. Imagine how much more awful Gotham would be without him, and also consider the good Bruce Wayne does for Gotham behind the scenes - when dipshit writers aren't intent on pushing the 'BRUCE IS A MASK BECAUSE HE DIED WHEN HIS PARENTS DID' nonsense.

So as it is.. I think this, frankly, is a shitty portrayal of both characters caused by a character who we've never seen before with an incredibly shitty strawman argument.

[starwolf_oakley]

It's more of a "At least when Falcone was in charge the trains ran on time and crazed Chinese Ninjas weren't trying to blow them up" argument.

[mrstatham]

Yeah, and in the mean time, a psychotic fuck ran the SWAT team on the police force who could basically deploy bombs to get rid of one man and actively destroyed Gotham's park, going by what I remember of Year One, and the Police Commissioner himself was a corrupt bastard on Falcone's payroll whilst children were being prostituted in the streets. It's a rose-tinted strawman argument if there ever was one.

And the idea that Batman lures these people in to Gotham is such nonsense; Going by Batman Begins, Falcone eventually ended up being on Ra's payroll. Going by another example - the awesome 'Trial' episode of BTAS, nearly every single one of Batman's foes has nothing involving Batman in their origin, and are not actively interested in involving Batman in their plots. These villains target the people of Gotham because they're sick fucks, not because Batman's there.

[theflames]

Yeah see that's the thing. The man is so powerful, thats the bloody thing with Superman. No range. Just 'he can do what he wants when the situation calls for it', I love the character but geez.

And there can be more than one fireman, why should we have two grown men having a pissing match instead of one just being a dick?

...Assface?

[randyripoff]

As things have been for the last few years, the argument that Batman makes Gotham worse by attracting supervillains is pretty much spot on. I can't remember the last time Batman and friends battled a robbery/burglary scheme or solved a murder mystery. Every threat to Gotham has been about killing as many people as possible or destroying the city. It's hard to see any sort of value he brings considering that every 24 hours Gotham burns.

[icon_uk]

The lack of regular criminals in Gotham is painful to me these days (Though it has been the case for years)

I remember there's a bit in one of Kevin Smith's Batman titles, where they mention that as time passed the original, playful (or at least not completely murderous) villains either upped their game (Crazy Quilt starts cutting out people's eyes for example... okay, he had always been prepared to kill, but usually as part of his plan to kill Robin, rather than just... y'know a "thing" he did in and of itself) or retired because they just didn't want to deal with the crazies, When the VILLAINS are quitting because it's getting too horrible, it should be telling you something.

[randyripoff]

Exactly. Gone are the days when the only truly murderous villain in Gotham was the Joker. They all seem to want body counts in the dozens now, when it used to be that at least some of the villains were primarily interested in making a profit.

[junipepper]

Because Dan DiDio hates you, that's why.

DiDio does hate me. It's increasingly obvious with every new editorial edict...

Not that this is an example of it, particularly, just thought I'd chime in on DiDio.

[kingofmadcows]

There has been a steady escalation in the kinds of crimes that are committed in Gotham.

Even non costumed criminals are committing some very gruesome and horrific crimes. The mobs are using the ruthless and brazen tactics of Black Mask and the gangs are becoming more and more like the Mutants in "The Dark Knight Returns." Then you have organizations like the Religion of Crime that pretty much exist just to commit depraved acts.

The crimes being committed by supervillains are becoming so sick and perverse that not only do they have zero chance of redemption but it's becoming impossible to believe that they would be allowed to live. There's just no way that there wouldn't be riots and lynch mobs calling for their deaths.

Gotham has become this horrible soul crushing city of the damned bereft of hope.

[icon_uk]

They REALLY need to close that Hellmouth....

[starwolf_oakley]

Indeed. For pretty much all of the 1990s, you got the idea that Batman going out each and every night was the only thing stopping Gotham from collapsing into criminal anarchy. Until No Man's Land, when Gotham collapsed into criminal anarchy.

[jkcarrier]

Back in the '80s, Alan Moore wrote a Green Arrow story that floated the idea that the superheroes were in effect culling all the ordinary crooks, and pretty soon only the most violent and horrible ones would be left. Very prescient of him, I have to say.

[kingofmadcows]

While there is some logic to that, the response from law enforcement, the government, and the general public should also reflect that new dynamic. When you have bad guys that are just insane serial killers who torture people, mutilate bodies, brazenly kidnap and kill children from schools, it makes no sense for people to still be so complacent. If the government does not act accordingly, then there would be a massive backlash from the public.

[captainbellman]

That's probably where the last few lines of dialogue in "Batman Begins" originated.

[kingofmadcows]

That's why I like the DCAU so much. The villains aren't all completely evil and depraved monsters. Many of them show the potential for redemption. Even several of the supervillains have some humanity left in them where you're rooting for them to overcome their demons, which makes their fall back into villainy so much more tragic. It's also one of many reasons why I miss Cassandra Cain so much.

[captainbellman]

This book was all about the silliness, as I recall, and nothing's better and sillier than topping off a tragic moralistic story by having Batman saying "I'm a Fireman" with a straight face.

[chocochuy]

So Superman is an architect and Batman is a fireman? Poetic as it may have been intended, methinks it would be more fitting to avoid giving them metaphorical jobs and simply state what they really are : Heroes. Aye, their motives and methods do vary but both do their best to fight for justice and peace. Truth to be said, I never was a fan of these dynamics between Superman and brooding "wiser" Batman (Clark, just give old frown-face a hug already!).

[blunderbuss]

You know, reading these comics makes me think that Batman is a concept that only really works if the writers use an even keel. If Batman mostly focused on defeating 'regular' crime and had his rogue gallery commiting mostly 'regular' crime and only going big scale very rarely, then the argument could be made that he's making a real difference and he is right by not killing them.

But by making ridiculous body counts all over the place, it just makes Batman look like an inept fool and Gothamites like suicidal lemmings.

Of course, I've read this community long enough to know that DC ever being that restrained is a fool's dream.

[darkknightjrk]

I remember somewhere a DC editor saying Superman was the fireman. It could have been DiDio. Because Dan DiDio hates you, that's why.

I don't know, I can see the argument to that--because of his abilities, Superman is one of your best shots at going into some sort of disaster, getting everyone that's in it out of the situation, and stopping it. It's not all of him, but that's certainly a fairly big component of him.

Also, I sincerely doubt DiDio hates every single person who disagrees with his positions. Painting a man in such a sociopathic light honestly sounds like personally insulting a creator to me, and I thought that was a no-no in this community.