scans_daily | Star Trek #30

From:

q99

Yeeeees :)

From:

icon_uk

This looks like fun (Slightly disappointed it based on the Abrams-ST-verse, though, I just didn't warm to that take too much)

I like Ms Scott taking Mr Scott to task for stereotyping, but it does beg the question, in a genderflipped universe would the stereotypes be flipped too?

It's also a little unfortunate that in the third scan, first panel, it looks like male Kirk wants to move in to kiss female Kirk. I know that man has an ego, but that's going a LITTLE far IMHO.

From:

fredneil.livejournal.com

"It's also a little unfortunate that in the third scan, first panel, it looks like male Kirk wants to move in to kiss female Kirk. I know that man has an ego, but that's going a LITTLE far IMHO."

That was addressed in one of the later Trek movies when the shapeshifting alien who he kissed when it was a woman becomes a copy of himself. Something like "I can't believe I kissed myself." "It's what you've always wanted."

From:

nate_abril96

To be fair, if I had a sexy female counterpart I would also probably want to kiss them. Wait, then would that be incest? Parallel universe are weird.

From:

icon_uk

Somewhere between incest and a conveniently heteronormative form of narcissism?

From:

halloweenjack

Technically, it wouldn't be--it would be more like a sex chromosome-switched clone. Still not a good idea for the female one to get pregnant.

I've thought about this.

From:

lieut_kettch

Incest? More like masturbation. It's sex with yourself, after all.

From:

dr_archeville

Incesturbation

From:

sharky_chan

The best kind.

From:

sharky_chan

I should probably throw in a smiley face, so it's obvious I'm joking, shouldn't I? :D.

From:

mastermahan

It's Kirk. The man is in love with himself and is sexually curious about anything with a vagina. Damn right he's going to try and "compare notes".

Ms. Spock should just be glad her captain is there, because you know she's Jim's second choice.

Edited Date: 2014-03-02 01:38 am (UTC)

From:

icon_uk

In fairness we have no idea if some of the aliens he's expressed an interest in even have a vagina...

As I've probably said before, I like the scene in a Star Trek novel where he attends an ambassadorial dinner being hosted on the Enterprise and attempts to chat up an attractive female amphibian delegate, only to be told that she's flattered but really isn't into mammals, and is far more interested in the piscine ambassador floating in a nearby tank. When she also notes that her species doesn't have intercourse (Which she finds a rather repellent notion), but spawns, with the male fertilising the egg cluster some later, even Kirk backs down.

From:

kamino_neko

I like Ms Scott taking Mr Scott to task for stereotyping, but it does beg the question, in a genderflipped universe would the stereotypes be flipped too?

This doesn't actually seem to be a fully genderflipped universe. Kirk has found herself coming up against sexist attitudes (like with Turnabout Intruder, this strikes a strange chord for happening in the 24th century, but, whatever). Looks like the genders of the major named characters got flipped in the last two generations, but the indicators are that it's otherwise similar to the main universe.

From:

ozaline

I thought there was a flirting subtext to his whole talk of swapping notes and getting to know each other (not that he wasn't also serious about it), I'm sure he would if he could.

From:

drtechnobabel

God, this is hilarious! And I have to admit, I'm impressed that the artist took the time and effort to make the genderswapped versions of the crew look like their original counterparts in terms of body type and facial structure rather than just making them all look drop-dead gorgeous.

From:

yvonmukluk

Mirror Shatner out of fucking nowhere.

YES.

From:

skjam

Next up, mirror genderflip Kirk!

Sadly, since it's the Abramsverse, we won't get to hear about the genderflipped version of "Turnabout Intruder."

From:

crinos

Yeah, this is gonna get confusing in a hurry if this keeps up.

On the other hand: Kirk only orgy!

From:

thatnickguy

If we see mirror genderbent Spock, she better still have the evil goatee. That's necessary.

From:

lieut_kettch

I thought the evil mirror-verse equivalent for women was a belly shirt.

Edited Date: 2014-03-02 02:18 pm (UTC)

From:

icon_uk

Why not both? :)

From:

beyondthefringe

Oh, Spock, no.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

From:

thatnickguy

Eventually, the Kirks have to bang, right? I mean, it's RIGHT THERE. It's like Chekhov's Gun, only with sexual organs. And let's be honest, the only one who could truly please Kirk is another Kirk, regardless of gender.

From:

crinos

What do you think Kirk meant by "Compare notes between our two universes"?

I think "notes" is Kirk code for "Our genitals."

From:

abates

And then it turns out in this universe it's the men who get pregnant, like in that Red Dwarf episode.

From:

icon_uk

There's an Enterprise episode with much the same plot IIRC.

From:

shadowpsykie

oh yeah, the aliens who gave them the Hologram technology....

i'm of mixed feelings on that episode...

at first i thought it was funny....

then I thought it was problematic...

then i thought it was funny again.....

not since it's been a while, i am not sure what tot hink....

From:

jeyl

Now with this comic, Star Trek's attitudes towards real honest issues are strictly limited to belonging in alternate realities. First was having openly gay and bisexual characters being featured only in the mirror universe for Deep Space Nine, now a female dominant crew in NuTrek's alternate reality. Looks like we have a long way to go before we have a Star Trek series that has a vast majority female cast or characters who are as open to same-sex relationships as the ones who are to the opposite sex. Until than, they'll treated as issues that are "out of place".

Also, William Shatner as "Mirror Kirk" is supposed to have Brown eyes!

From:

halloweenjack

Jadzia Dax and Lenara Kahn.

From:

jeyl

It's not a bad example, but I still consider it a stretch. Heck, It's not even the first instance where a female Trill is attracted to another female. The thing is that these relationships both end up "not working" by the end of the episode and both main female characters wind up being paired with a main male character (Beverly/Picard, Dax/Worf or Bashir). Still no where near as bad as what they did on "The Outcast".

From:

icon_uk

In the episode "The Host" where a sort of proto-Trill species debuted, we have Odan, a male host (Who Dr Crusher was romantically interested in) dying and the Trill passing on to a female host (after spending a few days in Commander Riker), also now Odan.

At least they had the scene where Crusher notes that she would find such a relationship (where the one who is loved would retain the knowledge of the past bodies, but might change body and gender) impossible for her. She doesn't judge Odan (which would have been insnaely crass) but herself for not being able to accept that kind of relationship, and expresses a hope that someday humanity might find such a relationship viable. Since such a thing can't happen in human society terms, I'll give them a bit of leeway on that one.

From:

shadowpsykie

i think she even made it explicityly clear that it wasn't because she was a female. It's the idea that they would change hosts, they would be the same person, but they would also have the memories of the previous person. it was hard for her to wrap her mind around that concept.

hmmm going over my research, i may be off... i need to rewatch that episode....

but yeah i also saw it as a reference to acceptance of homosexual relationships

Edited Date: 2014-03-03 04:05 pm (UTC)

From:

ozaline

Or of transexuality, the line reminds me of Ozma's "I'm still the same old Tip you know."

Though of course Oban's desire to continue the relationship doesn't gell with the trill laws introduced later (but that's okay).

Jaddzia was shown to be pansexual, in more than the one episode... There was a lot of hints of her having interest in other women, there was the erotic pottery scene on Riza where Worf gets jealous for example.

And I don't think it's just because she's a joined Trill, it seemed to be very much a part of who Jaddzia is (though in the early bits of the first season she made references to joined Trills often being chaste and implied she was, so who even knows).

From:

lilacsigil

Not a bad episode, but the only non-evil same-sex relationship was still shown as wrong and taboo-breaking and they immediately broke up. If it had been one of many such stories, that wouldn't annoy me, but as it is, nope.

From:

northstarfan

Exactly. Plus there was too much wiggle room there for the show-runners to point and go, "No see, it was the worms that were attracted to each other, not the girls!" for me to feel like that episode was Trek being supportive of LGBT representation.

From:

ozaline

I felt that the episode was saying "society is wrong for keeping them apart, and that's tragic."

Remember Jaddiza was willing to go through with it.

From:

lilacsigil

I agree that's what the episode was saying, but the Tragic Queer forbidden love trope is an old one and far too often the only story we get. In this show, they also went with Evil Sexy Lesbians (and bisexuals). At least we were spared the other usual trope which is Dead Lesbians. Again, none of these tropes would be a problem if there were lots of other stories as well. But there weren't.

From:

ozaline

100% in agreement there.

From:

junipepper

Well, Shatner's eyes are on the green side of brown, a fairly bright color. In TOS it's more noticeable than in later years after his "hair" got so much darker. I'm not seeing a vivid blue in those scans (not like the Chris Pine color); maybe they're going for hazel?

From:

shadowpsykie

it's not for lack of trying. Gene Roddenberry believed that issues like sexuality and gender and race would not even be an issue in the future.

more than one show runner has tried to insert positive same sex relationships into the show.

Jonathan Franks tried to have an episode where Riker fell in love with a gender neutral/androgynous alien (this was to serve 2 purposes, one, it would show that it was the being he was attracted to and not the gender, and two, Frankes wanted the actor to be male so that it would allude to the idea of a same sex relationship) however, they made they cast, and made it obvious, the actress was female, defeating the purpose. (Frankes was very upset about that) though it did carry a nice message about the ethical issues of forcing someone to "choose" one gender over the other.

In Voyager, it was alluded to the idea that Seven of Nine and the captain were going to form a relationship (even Kate Mulgrew mentioned it as a possibility) before they changed it to a mother/daughter relationship.

In Enterprise, Tripp was supposed to be gay, and even in the last episode, this idea was alluded to when an off screen Riker (again played by Frankes) asks "Do you think he's attractive" while refering to Archer (it's made to look like he's talking to Tripp, when in reality he's talking to an off screen Troi)

The Next Generation movies DID manage to sneak in two or three relationships. During the Borg attack in First Contact, a character was gay (and was mentioned at having a partner at least in the novelization).

All these efforts at inclusion were changed due to executive meddling.

Wikipedia has an interesting article. Most show runners have tried. which is more than can be said for others. They do a better job in comics and the novels/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Star_Trek#LGBT_in_Star_Trek

Edited Date: 2014-03-03 04:05 pm (UTC)

From:

kamino_neko

Jonathan Franks

Frakes.

The Next Generation movies DID manage to sneak in two or three relationships. During the Borg attack in First Contact, a character was gay (and was mentioned at having a partner at least in the novelization).

Lt Hawk's sexuality - in fact, pretty much any aspect of his personality - never actually came up in the movie. He wasn't fleshed out at all until he was used in some novels. (Not the novelization of First Contact.) The people involved (including the actor) have denied intending Hawk to be gay in the movie. (Or anything other than borg-fodder.)

From:

ozaline

There was also an episode written by David Gerrold for TNG that was commissioned but never used called "Blood and Fire" which was supposed to be an allegory for the aids pandemic and have a gay character, it was later adapted for the fan series "Star Trek Phase 2," and the gay character is Kirk's Nephew.

From:

arbre_rieur

If you're counting the spin-off material, which is what you're doing by including comics, then there have been a lot of openly bisexual and gay characters in the novels.

From:

big_daddy_d

...is it weird that I find Lady Kirk and Lady Spock hot?

From:

icon_uk

Why would that even be weird?

From:

chrisdv

All I can think of is Lister sleeping with Lister in Red Dwarf.

From:

silverzeo

The scene with the Spocks seem like that Embarsing Couple meme I've been seeing around recently, except instead of the news... it's each other...

From:

lieut_kettch

Wait... does Jane Kirk share Jim Kirk's libido and narcissistic streak? Because if she does, then those two are totally gonna have space-gender-bender-doppelganger-incesturbation.

Also, it was a nice touch that mirror-Kirk was still Shatner and not Pine.

Edited Date: 2014-03-02 02:08 pm (UTC)

From:

thanekos

There was a more analogous mirror Kirk, though.

From:

scelestus

...what?? Was this from a novel? Holy hell...

From:

kamino_neko

No, it's from issues 15 and 16 of the comic. The last ones which played with concepts from the original series in the movie-verse.

From:

icon_uk

Space-gender-bender-doppelganger-incesturbation* FOR EVERYONE!

* What a wonderful turn of phrase... a very weird phrase and one I'd have no interest in personally, but wonderful nevertheless!

From:

shadowpsykie

i wonder what it would be like if the universes were gay. Like Spock and Uhura were still together, but they would be the same gender and still in a relationship.

i wonder if Male Spock is interested in experimenting with Male Uhuro (also that was a last name so shouldn't it be Nyoto Uhura?) and Female spock being interested in experimenting with female Uhura with both partners shocked, but slightly intruiged....

oh god i feel another fanfic.... but i am not good at the lady stuff....

From:

kamino_neko

Male Uhuro (also that was a last name so shouldn't it be Nyoto Uhura?)

I had that same thought when this arc (and the names of Kirk and Uhura's counterparts were named) was announced. Now, it's possible that Swahili genders surnames like that, but I doubt it. (I don't think Nyoto would be a proper masculine counterpart to Nyota, either, but again, I don't know Swahili.)

OTOH, Russian DOES have gendered surnames, and Chekov's counterpart was...Chekov, rather than Chekova. Her forename was given as Pavlovna, which is not the feminine form of Pavel, as was likely intended, but the patronym for a woman whose father was named Pavel. There's a few possibilities for this discrepancy, but the most likely is 'the writer didn't do enough research' (the more charitable ones are that Russian names work differently in that universe, or that by the 24th century they changed so that patronyms have become valid forenames, and last names are no longer gendered).

(Main Universe and Prime Universe Chekov are named Pavel Andreievich Chekov - or Pavel, the son of Andrei Chekov. The most simple way to feminize the name would be Polina Andreievna Chekova - Polina, the daughter of Andrei Chekov.)

As a sidenote, Jane is pretty much the last name I'd have chosen for James Kirk's counterpart - Jacqueline (Jackie) or Jamie, which are both related to James, would seem much more likely, IMO.

Edited (Stupid, stupid spelling mistake, that I always make.) Date: 2014-03-03 06:11 pm (UTC)

From:

kamino_neko

I just checked my copy of issue 29 out of curiosity and here are the full names given for the various counterparts, and my commentary thereon...

James Tiberius Kirk - Jane Tiberia Kirk (My quibbles about the first name aside, barring some rule I don't know, the middle name does seem to be valid Latin.)
Spock - Spock (While there are some exceptions, female Vulcan names tend to be in the form T'*, whereas S*k is mostly the masculine form - but Spock would be neither the first nor last exception, so, whatevs.)
Janice Rand - Jason Rand (Fair enough.)
Montgomery Scott - Marjorie Scott (Again, fair enough, but I think a more unusual name would have been more in keeping with Monty - someone in the other post suggested Morag, and I could totally have dug that.)
Pavel Andreievich Chekov - Pavlovna [Patronym not given, but presumably Andreievna] Chekov (See my other post for my objection here.)
Hikaru Sulu - Hikari Sulu (A fine name, but Hikaru is unisex, so it's a bit disappointing they changed it - Hikari and Hikaru are two different forms of the same name, anyway.)
Nyota Uhura - Nnamdi Uhuro (Good choice on the first name...still not sure on the last.)
Christine Chapel - Chris Chapel (Same name, just gender-flipped. Best choice.)
Leonard McCoy - Lea McCoy (I'd have gone with Leonora, but given that one possible derivation of Lea is a Hebrew word meaning 'weary', it's not a bad choice for McCoy.)
Carol Marcus - Carl Marcus (See Chris Chapel.)
Keenser - Keensara (... I'd have just left it, personally, but since Keenser and Keensara are the only named members of their species we've ever met, I suppose this establishes both that and how their names are gendered.)