Harley Quinn #25

[kojiro]

Comments

[rainspirit]

Damn, Harley.

[informationgeek]

There's a bit more of what happens here that CBR did an article on for those who are interested:

CLICK LINK

[silverhammerman]

The excuse about not killing the Joker really does start to look ridiculous coming from a character who murders dudes left, right, and center, especially when it's pretty canonical that the Joker wants Batman and only Batman to be the one to kill him.

[beyondthefringe]

I'm distracted by wondering when this fits into DC's sorry excuse for story-not-continuity, because the Joker's timeline has been pretty rigid ever since the New 52 started, with him being anywhere but Arkham.

All I can do is accept this series is fairly out of continuity.

And if it is out of continuity, why doesn't Harley kill the Joker? Embrace the freedom, baby.

[chalicother]

I always considered this series to always be out of continuity. The Harley Quinn used for continuity is the Suicide Squad one.

[beyondthefringe]

I wish we could trade.

[freezer]

I may be a bit behind on my Joker lore, but when, exactly, did the Heath Ledger Joker become Canon!Joker?

[sadoeuphemist]

What? That guy looks and acts nothing like Heath Ledger's Joker.

[freezer]

I meant the whole "Spirt of Chaos" thing. This Joker isn't in it for the money or pulling shit off because he thinks it's funny. This Joker just does stuff to cause maximum chaos. That's Ledger's Joker.

[sadoeuphemist]

He's not talking about chaos at all? He's acting very controlling and possessive, as opposed to a guy who causes mayhem for the hell of it.

[lucean]

That's been the comic book Joker for eternity, ever since the late 80s. That is where Ledger drew his inspiration for the character.

[redmagpie]

HEY EVERYONE REMEMBER HOW HARLEY IS ONLY ONE IN A LONG TRAIN OF JOKER SIDEKICKS/GIRLFRIENDS WHO HE 'MADE' SO THERE'S NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT HER???
Yeah well I remembered and I felt like forcing it upon all of you guys too

[locuatico]

good, because a lot of people forget.

Story over continuity! Story over continuity!

[deh_tommy]

I think that issue made what Joker was saying (wether or not he did have feelings for her, if there were other Harleys, etc.) open to some degree of interpretation.

[icon_uk]

I choose to send that to the same corner of the cornfield as I do the "Harley gives out gimmicked videogames which explode and maim/kill kids all over Gotham".

[kurenai_tenka]

Super uncomfortable. o.o

[thenicochan]

Something about the way the Joker is written here, at least in these few pages, doesn't exactly gel with me. (I feel that way about him, and Catwoman oddly enough, about 50% of the time) I feel like he's a little...I dunno...on the nose? There's nothing even morbidly "funny" about him. He kind of comes off like a Lifetime movie villain.

It's a cathartic engagement, and I'm happy for Harley (the kiss attack was awesome) but it feels...hollow, in some way.

[icon_uk]

IMHO the Joker hasn't been genuinely, or even morbidly, funny in a long, long time.

[lego_joker]

Hey, now. There was... uh, and umm... oh, what about... err... well, there's always... no, that's not in-continuity anymore...

... does Lego Batman count?

[torporish]

Yeah, true. He should at least be funny to himself, right?

[chalicother]

I think it's the fact that it's play a little too on the nose of violent exboyfriend. While thier relationship has always been abusive, Joker has never been at least in my eyes that preoccupied with Harley. Yeah, he see's her as a toy, but I don't think he ever saw her as a girlfriend or partner. Elite minion. I am not bothered by this , as this book's is showing Harley , having an identity out of the Joker.

Also no current writers able to get a funny Joker for awhile, and choosing to make him a human killing machine as a challenge to Batman's rule to never kill.

[torporish]

While thier relationship has always been abusive, Joker has never been at least in my eyes that preoccupied with Harley. Yeah, he see's her as a toy, but I don't think he ever saw her as a girlfriend or partner. Elite minion.

At best, yeah. I agree. If anything, the moment he sees she's not going to give in easily, he should just get bored with the whole thing. That's his attitude towards everything. Everyone and everything is just a toy for his amusement.

[lissa_quon]

Yea I'm not digging this. I mean good for Harley - happy she got to do this. But Joker here being all abusive Lifetime channel dude feels wrong.

He doesn't feel like The Joker. I can't see what sort of charisma he had to turn her in the first place. Also this doesn't seem to make any sense. Abusers tend to do a push pull yo-yo act. The violence and then the honeymoon period.If he wants her to let him out and go with him - for even a brief amount of time - wouldn't he try to play nice?

I'm thinking of the Batman Animated episode where Harley upsets him and he beats her up - and then gives her flowers. He may not care about her - but he knows how to string her along and keep her under his thumb. This just feels like a cardboard cut out where the writer KNOWS that the Joker is abusive but doesn't know how that works.

[lego_joker]

To be honest, this is why I've never liked Harley, at least not within the context of Joker/Harley. Almost every time they're in the same panel, the writer feels obliged to turn the Joker into a fire-breathing ogre out of some Lifetime movie, and the character immediately becomes as predictable as a Russian election. Frankly, even Dini fell into this trap more often than not.

I get that the Joker is and should be abusive, but that's no excuse to not get creative. Have him play headgames and crouch stealth insults and gaslighting in what seem like straightforward compliments. And if you *have* to get physical, I would recommend taking inspirations from Looney Tunes or the Three Stooges instead of *yawn* punches and slaps and the occasional gunshot.

[torporish]

... you know, I don't know how I feel about this. This is gonna sound really hideous, but here I'm going to go and say it anyway... for me, the thing that's always really made Harley as a character is the basic tragedy of her as the prototypical abuse victim. The fact that she literally can't resist going back to the Joker, like a moth to the flame, no matter how little sense it makes. It's that basic all-too-horribly-human tragedy that makes the character for me. Like how the Mad Hatter was a geek with a doomed crush he took way (way *way*) too far, and Mr. Freeze's desire to avenge/save his wife. I mean, this moment, right?

... on the other hand, given how few people seem to get that the Joker / Harley relationship was abusive these days, maybe a moment like this was a good thing. I don't know. Maybe this just feels way too easy for my taste. (Also, why would Harley still be insane after this? I mean, the Joker's the reason she went nuts to begin with. The thing that kept her in madness. Right?)

[mesmiranda]

... on the other hand, given how few people seem to get that the Joker / Harley relationship was abusive these days, maybe a moment like this was a good thing.

I think you nailed it here. I see a lot of comments on sites around the Web along the lines of "They're crazy together~! Two beautiful f-ed up people~*~!" and just... ignoring all the implications.

And when you get down to it, in serial storytelling, tragedy only stays tragedy because there's change--a profound impact that alters the course of the character/story. If Harley just keeps going back to the Joker as the 'prototypical abuse victim', over and over again, at a certain point you stop caring (as awful as that sounds) because nothing's going to get better. Harley's just going to keep on suffering and the Joker will keep getting his kicks out of it. You can only write so many stories about "Harley's an abuse victim, And That's Terrible" before it becomes cheap pathos. And having Harley grow out of an abusive relationship and stand up for herself and find out her own identity? That's not the worst message in the world.

(Honestly, this is why I really wish Joker was a legacy character. It solves the problem of "why doesn't someone just shoot him for God's sake" and "why have Harley and Joker been doing this dance for fifty, sixty years"--it could be supernatural, it could be copycat killers, it could be a plot by Batman's enemies, just... multiple Jokers really would solve things.)

[torporish]

Yeah, good point. I suppose I just don't get where Harley's story can go from here. If she's over the Joker, does she really have any reason to be a villain or oppose Batman? Or even be violently insane? Which -- hm. Yeah, okay, maybe there's some kind of story to be told in her long and difficult road back to sanity / functionality. But from what I've seen on here, that doesn't seem to be the direction they're going with this. Am I wrong?

You can only write so many stories about "Harley's an abuse victim, And That's Terrible" before it becomes cheap pathos. And having Harley grow out of an abusive relationship and stand up for herself and find out her own identity? That's not the worst message in the world.

True. Maybe my real problem is with how this moment was handled. Because facing down your former abuser? Character-wise, I think it's safe to say that that's a Very Big Deal, and I'm just not getting that from this. Then again, I haven't been following the series here. Was there more of a buildup to this confrontation than I know about?

If Harley just keeps going back to the Joker as the 'prototypical abuse victim', over and over again, at a certain point you stop caring (as awful as that sounds) because nothing's going to get better.

I always thought there might be a story in just how frustrating that must be from Batman's point of view. "Again, Harley? Really? What, were the other five hundred times he left you for dead not enough for you?"

edit:

(Honestly, this is why I really wish Joker was a legacy character. It solves the problem of "why doesn't someone just shoot him for God's sake" and "why have Harley and Joker been doing this dance for fifty, sixty years"--it could be supernatural, it could be copycat killers, it could be a plot by Batman's enemies, just... multiple Jokers really would solve things.)

Yeah, I've got my own theories about that. Don't get me started, though.

[mesmiranda]

Yeah, good point. I suppose I just don't get where Harley's story can go from here. If she's over the Joker, does she really have any reason to be a villain or oppose Batman? Or even be violently insane? Which -- hm. Yeah, okay, maybe there's some kind of story to be told in her long and difficult road back to sanity / functionality. But from what I've seen on here, that doesn't seem to be the direction they're going with this. Am I wrong?

She is still hanging out with Poison Ivy, so she's not totally on the straight and narrow. I think part of the fun will be building up her own villain (or anti-villain, or anti-hero--who knows) credentials, and exploring her own personality. (I have to admit, I kind of like the whole quasi-Deadpool shtick.)

True. Maybe my real problem is with how this moment was handled. Because facing down your former abuser? Character-wise, I think it's safe to say that that's a Very Big Deal, and I'm just not getting that from this. Then again, I haven't been following the series here. Was there more of a buildup to this confrontation than I know about?

I haven't been either, so I can't tell you--someone else is going to have to jump in at this point. But what are your theories about the Joker?

[torporish]

But what are your theories about the Joker?

Man, don't get me started. Short version: Batman can't kill him, because it would just make him worse.