Salvation Run #6

[history79]

Comments

[janegray]

Seriously what is it with the treatment of female characters in this series.

[nyadnar17]

I have absolutely no idea. It seems so out of place and garish.

[reveen]

Not to internet cold read the writers (except I totally am lol), but the idea of a post-apocalyptic or stranded survival situation brings out creepy shit in some people. "Well, we're starting a new civilization so the women must be put to breeding, two to a man to maximize the babbies!"

I think part of it has to do with how a lot of people sneer at feminism partly on the basis that it only exists due to modern society, and the sufferance of the men that build modern society, and the second society goes away gender roles will shift back to their natural state and then those women will be sorry!

[janegray]

Of course, that ignores the fact that people have been putting history through historical revisionism for as long as history has existed, so that the "natural state" somehow always ends up looking an awful lot like an exaggerated version of the environment you were raised in.

Like those archaeologists who discovered tombs full of weapons and authority symbols and automatically assumed that the buried people were men, and then 50 years later DNA tests confirmed that they were women.

Turns out that humanity, in its evolution across the continents and the millennia, did not uniformly behave like 1950s America. Who knew?

[q99]

Dunno, since when was Vandal the suave type? At least he's using someone's powers to pull it off... but you've got a Cheetah God there who *will* notice and *will* rip him apart.

The 'Catfight' thing too- this is after the silly Catwoman thing, isn't it?

[gnarll]

I can see that few of the men they got there will be paragons of enlightenment and equality. Especially people like Vandal Savage who are not invested in modern societys values at all.

I just can't picture the women here putting up with it. Do the writers have any idea how powerful they are? Why are they just standing there?

Also, I don't see Joker managing a five-second lifespan in that crowd. Someone would incinerate him just as a precaution.

[q99]

-I just can't picture the women here putting up with it. Do the writers have any idea how powerful they are? Why are they just standing there?-

"You and me, King and Queen."

Phobia? Maybe.

Cheetah? "I am a Goddess of savage nature in a savage world, and frankly, I don't see what you bring to the equation."

[laughing_tree]

Well, to be fair, it outright says they're putting up with it only because Phobia's putting the psychic whammy on them. And Lady Flash, at least, is supposed to be the easily manipulated sheep sort, from what I recall.

[silicondream]

Yeah, Vandal could probably talk Christina into working for him again without any brainwashing. Phobia has abandonment issues too, so she's probably an easy mark. Cheetah, nope.

Nocturna might reasonably be resistant to Phobia's powers. IIRC, Nocturna's one and only superpower at this point was the release of pheromones that lowered people's inhibitions, including her own. You'd think that would make it harder to keep her in line through fear.

By the way, does this story get Phobia's powers right? I thought her schtick was sensing a target's greatest fears and creating lifelike illusions of them. That's kinda different from nudging a target towards general timidity and paranoia, as she's doing here.

[icon_uk]

No, you're right about Phobia being off key here.

Her power is to detect and exploit existing specific fears, bringing them to front to such an extent the person may hallucinate and outright die of terror in some cases. She can also only exploit a specific fear once.

Here, and in Infinite Crisis, it seems to be a lot vaguer. in IC she says she can use her fear to make Nightwing do whatever she wants, and ditto here, presumably by making her target afraid of herself and/or Savage.

She also used to be arrogant beyond belief, the idea she'd go along with Vandal at all seems very off.

[laughing_tree]

Cheetah's not really being a pawn here in the way the others are, though. The others are the ones doing all this grunt work and spending half the night up doing defensive drills, while she seems to be just doing whatever she likes. And the whole deal behind her powers is that she became the bride of the god Urzkartaga, so I think a king & queen deal for the sake of power is actually fairly in keeping with her characterization.

[lb_lee]

I personally have never envisioned Luthor or the Joker as good hand-to-hand fighters. So I kinda imagine the fight between them as like, the shit fourth-graders do, flailing and kinda incompetent, and all the actual fighters just watching.

Also seriously, when has allying with the Joker EVER ended well? Like, Luthor, I could see him getting allies, because he's not known for killing his own cronies at random, but seriously? Why would anyone asides from Harley EVER work for the Joker?

[cainofdreaming]

Because the other option is refusing Joker? Death within hours or days versus death within seconds.

[lb_lee]

You know, of all the people who could get away with turning the Joker down, I think Luthor would have pretty good odds. I mean, come on. He's Lex Luthor.

[thehood]

Except Joker and Luthor do team up fairly often and at one point Luthor even admits to enjoying Joker's company.

He also thinks it's better to have Joker on your side. After all, look at what happened to Alexander Luthor when he decided not to invite Joker.

[icon_uk]

Except that at other times, Luthor has been smart enough to realise that Joker is a truly awful team player, or partner in crime (especially recently when Luthor is ostensibly respectable, and the Joker is a raving loon who kills children and then gimmicks their coffins so that the corpses pop out like jack-in-the-boxes in the middle of the memorial service. Luthor is a monster in his own way but he's a methodical monster )

Joker won't stick to a plan if the whim takes him, might casually wipe out the henchman who is pivotal to the plan and generally cause mayhem to the villains scheme just as much as the heroes because he thought it would be funny.

In fact Luthor actively kept Joker out of his Society because, as King of the Royal Flush Gang tells him, he's too much of a wild card.

[cainofdreaming]

That was actually Alexander Luthor. When Lex dealt with him he actually invited Joker along.

[icon_uk]

Was it? I stand corrected

[cainofdreaming]

Yup. Well, it was Alexander pretending to be Lex while the actual Lex was busy injecting Kryptonite into his veins.

[thehood]

You are confusing Lex with Alexander.

Lex actually told Alexander that Alexander made a mistake by not inviting Joker, because now Joker feels slighted. The next panel was Joker burning Alexander face off with acid while Lex and Joker watched.

[silicondream]

He's also confident enough to work with the Joker without fearing for his life, though. Not that the Joker doesn't periodically try to kill him too, but Lex thinks he can handle that, and so far, he's usually been correct.

E.g., Lex brought the Joker on board for his Injustice League in the Morrison JLA run, and didn't hesitate to slap him down when he went too far.

[icon_uk]

Unless you're someone with powers who could kill Joker in less than a second, and there must be a half dozen psychopaths with that sort of pwoer level in the crowd.

[cainofdreaming]

If you need to breathe he could still catch you with some Joker venom, or some other deadly gimmick. Sure, there are people who he has no sane reason to be able to intimidate, but then insanity is kinda the thing with him.

[icon_uk]

A decent telekinetic (like Grodd for example), would be able to kill the Joker from a lot further away than Joker venom would reach them. Snap his neck or crush his windpipe, or squish his heart.

[q99]

Luthor likes to picture himself as this higher human. There was an incident where he trained with someone, and had them killed when they actually won, but he is a trained fighter.

Plus think about all the battlesuit experience he has vs Superman.

Joker's kinda odd. I mean, he's unpredictable enough in a fight that he can occasionally surprise Batman, and he won't just roll over to a Robin, but he's not exactly what one would call a martial artist either.


As for allying with Joker... I think it's ok for the other major Gotham villains, because he views them as 'part of the game' against Bats. Penguin, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, Twoface, they can do so safely. And he can ally with Lex or Barbara Minerva, on the ground that 'if Bats brings in Superman and Wonder Woman, well, then their foes get to be on my team! Just for a temporary team-up, of course.' Only people directly involved in his conflict with Batman in some respect count as people.

Chumps, though? Random villains? Chumps (even powerful ones) and random villains shouldn't ally with Joker- they are not part of The Game vs Bats, therefore they are cannon fodder. He will use them to gain an advantage, he will use them to serve a punchline.

[lb_lee]

That makes sense. Admittedly, most of my knowledge of both villains is through cartoons, where they're VERY rarely shown fighting on their own for very long.

[icon_uk]

The Joker outright murdered Mr Freeze because he was in a lethal mood.

Of course a couple of years later, BTAS breathed new life into Freeze, and the comic revived him too.

[q99]

At the time, I'd argue Freeze was just a chump with a freeze gun :)

It's only once BTAS Freeze who has an obsession comes along, who has purpose that drives him against the bat, who is safe to team up.

[gnarll]

Admittedly, that would be hilarious. Long, drawn-out slapfight, and the onlookers, who knows how to fight shaking their heads slowly "This... is truly lamentable"

[lb_lee]

Yeah. My personal headcanon is that most superheroes with powers fight like fourth-graders, because when you're almost invulnerable and can punch through bricks without trying, why bother to learn proper form? I mean, that's pretty canonical for Guy Gardner (I seem to recall Lobo shouting, "Hair-pulling? You're indulging in HAIR-PULLING???") and it adds to my entertainment, plus is a convenient patch for artists who don't really know how to depict fight scenes. It's just because in reality, most superheroic battles are actually colossally undignified!

And you just KNOW the Joker would be that jackass who goes for the groin immediately, while Luthor would be the type to claw at the eyes, shrieking the whole time.

[q99]

-
Yeah. My personal headcanon is that most superheroes with powers fight like fourth-graders, because when you're almost invulnerable and can punch through bricks without trying, why bother to learn proper form? -

Definitely what Empowered does ^^

I like to think a lot of the generic strong types are poor fighters- why Mammoth and similar always get rocked, but the A-listers like Superman have more skill because, well, they're experienced, and they've been around the block that they'll know they need it.

And Wonder Woman's pretty famous for being the one brick who's *really* good at martial arts.

[lb_lee]

Yup. I'm not sure Empowered was where I first got the idea--it might've been on one of the old JLI comms of LJ old--but it's definitely high up there.

And sure, I'll believe some of them are good at what they do. But I'm still entertained by the idea of superheroic fights being silly to watch.

[q99]

Anyone who throws punches a ton isn't going to be *too* bad IMO- no one likes missing and simple experience accumulates- it's just most won't have need to develop much in the way of advanced skills, rookies will mostly have mostly short one-sided fights where they hit once and that's it so even their basics aren't great, and even a lot of more experienced superbrawlers mainly fight other superbrawlers so throwing a good straight is all they need.


Oh, Titannia from Marvel comes to mind. She showed up all super-strong, plowed through strong foes who traded hits with her... then she met Spider-man. Miss all day.

[liliaeth]

It's one of the things I like about the Supergirl series, that they actually had Alex train Kara to make her a better fighter.

[zapbiffpow]

"So I kinda imagine the fight between them as like, the shit fourth-graders do, flailing and kinda incompetent, and all the actual fighters just watching."

Heh, heh, heh. I'd love to see this. No dramatic scene cuts, no epic fight moves: just one, awkward, security camera-eye take of Joker and Luthor pawing and grappling at each other, making awkward sex noises.

[lb_lee]

Some comic SOMEWHERE must have done this at some point.

[md84]

Or better yet, framing it as this epic fight scene with slow motion camera and awesome music while the two ineffectively slap and shin kick each other. Like that one "fight" from Buffy the Vampire Slayer between Harmony and Xander.

[icon_uk]

Luthor I could see training himself in martial arts as a means of control (and Luthor is ALL bout control) and self-control.

A couple of times it's been noted that the Joker shouldn't be able to last for any length of time against someone like Batman but does better than you'd think because he knows fighting moves from watching other people fight, and uses them randomly and in ways Batman never expects because it's contrary to the fighting styles he's disciplined himself to use and it's also possible that Joker just doesn't feel pain quite the way most people do.

Doesn't make a lot of logical sense I grant you, but that's the Joker for you.

[trooper924]

So, this comic started out with the villains fighting for survival and each other. Then it became just the villains fighting each other. Now it's the villains fighting parademons (and possibly still each other). Is there a point to any of this?

[shakalooloo]

Joker-Luthor War is a better concept for a movie than Batman V Superman.

[icon_uk]

Agreed. I'm also reminded of this cover!

[kurenai_tenka]

Lol, that's the one where Lex says the Joker is just upset because Batman won't invite him to prom, right? Classic.

[silicondream]

“You and me, Barbara. King and queen.”

“King and queen of three other people? All of whom are women you’re planning to sleep with?”

“How did—“

“I’m good at stalking, Savage. You don’t even let them wear pajamas.”

“…well, eventually there will be three other people and babies!”

“Great, so I just have to wait around for twenty years and then a man who’s not you might make it through puberty. Why are you bothering with this brainwashing thing, anyway? Phobia can’t brainwash herself, Christina’s a born henchwoman who actually named herself “Lady Savage” for a while, and Nocturna doesn’t exactly need to be more frightened. She already knows she’s pretty much the least lethal person or animal on this planet.”

“But brainwashing them makes them more reliable! So that they can…babies! And also building houses and raising those armadillo-ewok things as livestock.”

“I catch wild prey by choice, and Christina and I can perform manual labor literally thousands of times faster than the entire potential population of this little colony for the next century. How exactly do I benefit from being here? Come to think of it, what do you contribute to this little venture, Savage?”

“Sperm! Babies! Also, I was there for the rise of civilization. I can teach you how to rebuild it from scratch!”

“So you’ll give us flint-knapping lessons while Luthor and Sivana build robots out of dirt and rocks. Fantastic. I’m ripping your throat out and joining Team Joker now; at least it won’t be boring.”

[q99]

Hehehe :)

-and Christina and I can perform manual labor literally thousands of times faster than the entire potential population of this little colony for the next century.-

Well, not that Cheetah would :)

-“So you’ll give us flint-knapping lessons while Luthor and Sivana build robots out of dirt and rocks. Fantastic. I’m ripping your throat out and joining Team Joker now; at least it won’t be boring.”-

Also? Barbara is an *anthropologist*. Who studied primitive cultures, and traveled deep into the jungle back when she was human.

Basically, pre-Cheetah she was a somewhat older Lara Croft.

-
“So you’ll give us flint-knapping lessons while Luthor and Sivana build robots out of dirt and rocks. Fantastic. I’m ripping your throat out and joining Team Joker now; at least it won’t be boring.”-

Hehehe :D