Steve Rogers: Captain America #19 + Sam Wilson: Captain America #24

[laughing_tree]

Long time readers probably notice that if anything, the politics are less heavy handed nowadays. There was absolutely nothing subtle about the messages in 80s comics. It's just you were younger when you read them. -- Nick Spencer





















"You were the only person who saw me as I truly am--"

Comments

[velador]

So, after Nick Spencer started his Sam Wilson run by painting those opposing Sam claiming to be Captain America as racists in-universe, we will now see this conclude with a showdown between Sam Wilson as the new and true Captain America and Steve Rogers, the cis white male Captain America turned Nazi, probably ending with the latter getting smacked with the Cap shield while Sam is cheered by a multiethnic crew representing LGBT and differently-abled persons, lecturing with a thinly veiled rant about Trump?

This isn't exactly less heavy handed or more subtle, Nick.

[lonewolf23k]

As the Trope goes: Some Anvils need to be Dropped.

[idiotalchemist]

Some anvils need to be dropped, but they need to be dropped wisely and dropped well. Flinging anvils about willy nilly only makes everyone mad and does nothing for the goal. No matter how worried I may be about global climate change, it does not make The Day After Tomorrow any less of a crap film.

[katefan]

re: Day After Tomorrow. Good example.

[long_silence]

Except after Secret Empire Steve is still going to be Captain America and Sam is going back to being Falcon

[bruinsfan]

I remember some fairly nuanced and thoughtful political comics coming from, say, Roger Stern's pen in the early 80s. Meanwhile, I stopped reading the Sam Wilson title partially due to that whole ridiculous AmeriCops storyline that might as well have been written in crayon for how hamfisted and on-the-nose it was.

[nyadnar17]

Pretty much. I re-read those comics as an adult you know? Its not just all stupid kid tinted nostalgia glasses.

[q99]

I really dig Sam Wilson as Captain America, but I find story-wise I'm mostly into his team books.

[cyberghostface]

Reading this makes part of me wonder if Nick Spencer was butthurt over people not liking Sam so he made Steve Hydra response to that. "You wanted the real Cap back? Well look! Look what you get! And if you read this over the other title you're supporting a Nazi!"

It's especially awkward reading him trying to insert comics-related criticism in-universe.

[aperturedreams]

He didn't make Sam Cap and only wrote him for a couple issues before bringing Rogers back so I don't think that makes sense. Remender made Sam Captain America and Spencer's Hydra Cap idea came as a scaled down version of Remender's previous plans for a Hydra infiltration in different superhero teams and governments.

[starwolf_oakley]

Sam should keep in mind that the general public of the Marvel Universe aren't good people. They hated Spider-Man because J. Jonah Jameson told them to. They wanted to legally kill all the X-Men because being born with super-powers is icky. They turned Norman Osborn into a hero because he shot and killed one alien during a brawl in Central Park.

Part of the public hating Sam as Captain America was kept vague. It wasn't clear what everyone hated, unless it was simply "A black guy as Captain America." And I *hope* it wasn't that simple.

Was it "Sam Wilson was never in the military?" "Sam Wilson is a communist"? "Sam Wilson is trying to *improve* things in a way Steve Rogers never did and he should just stick to hitting villains with his mighty shield?"

[jlbarnett]

all four of the options you list and a fifth, Sam Wilson's not the real Captain America

[beeyo]

Sam Wilson is the real Captain America, at least to me

[coldfury]

Are you seriously quoting Hydra? This is the hill you decide to die on, "Hydra was right"?

[jlbarnett]

don't go putting words in my mouth pal. The person I responded to was asking why Sam was that hated, and listed some reasons. I agreed with the possibilities and added a fifth

Seriously, what the hell? This response was extremely inappropriate.

[coldfury]

On of the major plot points of Sam's book is people saying "Not my Captain America." This was revealed to be, in part, drummed up by Steve himself, acting in his capacity as a Hydra agent.

So when you respond to a post about Secret Empire going on about how Sam's not the REAL Captain America, it doesn't paint you in a flattering light.

Is Miles not the REAL Spider-Man?
Is Kamala not the REAL Ms. Marvel?
Is Kate not the REAL Hawkeye?

[deh_tommy]

I would argue no, they're not the REAL Spider-Man/Ms. Marvel/Hawkeye, but neither are Peter Parker, Carol Danvers or Clint Barton: being REAL sort of implies that they're superior to one another, when (for the most part) the younger heroes were on relatively good terms with their adult counterparts.

[cyberghostface]

"On of the major plot points of Sam's book is people saying "Not my Captain America." This was revealed to be, in part, drummed up by Steve himself, acting in his capacity as a Hydra agent."

That's a load of bullshit and you know it. Just because Spencer is using the views of critics of his comics and putting them into strawmen doesn't mean said critics' views are any less valid. If Red Skull were to say "Vote Bernie" that doesn't mean anyone who supported Bernie Sanders are therefore on the side of the Red Skull.

"Is Miles not the REAL Spider-Man?
Is Kamala not the REAL Ms. Marvel?
Is Kate not the REAL Hawkeye?"

I don't know the context behind the others but the REAL Spider-Man is Peter Parker. There's a reason why sales dropped when Ben Reilly took over because he wasn't the REAL Spider-Man. Miles would be better served with his own superhero identity at this point anyway.

[katefan]

Don't forget that Carol Danvers is the most popular hero because she championed a policy that favored putting people in prison without due process for crimes they might commit, and putting Tony Stark in a coma.

In fact, the public cheered Tony for doing pretty much the same thing, as well as turning on Captain America (ver. Rogers) for, among other things, not knowing what NASCAR is.

Wow, the more I think about it the less I like the MU, simply because people in general are dicks who don't deserve heroes.

I think the public didn't like Sam Wilson simply because he was Sam Wilson

[deh_tommy]

You know, people usually make fun of MARVEL citivilians for supposedly being idiotic, unrealistic and willing to turn on their heroes at the drop of a theoretical hat, but people really do act and think like those civilians. That doesn't make them any less of a person, nor do some disagreeable or controversial thoughts and beliefs mean no one is worth saving.

Re: I think the public didn't like Sam Wilson simply because he was Sam Wilson

[starwolf_oakley]

Well, just because the general public hated Sam for ill-defined reasons doesn't mean they didn't deserved to be saved. Although, most of that public liked living under Hydra. Until Hydra destroyed Las Vegas, I hope.

[lilacsigil]

Ha ha ha, Nick Spencer, no. There's always been a mix of heavy-handed and subtle.

[sarahnewlin]

I'm surprised Steve didn't just fridge Sharon, considering how she's basically being shit on in the films and now the comics with that post resurrection nonsense. Let ha live.

[superboyprime]

Context of that quote:

[tigerkaya]

And so the bullshit continues though I confess I look forward to the sales tanking in the nagatives if it will get Marvel's out of its own ass. Though in truth I'm partial to a wide spread firing of several creative teams off the company a fresh slate.

[wizardru]

Spencer's right that the 80s had some comics with politics, but he's wrong that it was nearly so heavy-handed as this entire run and this event. Squadron Supreme certainly addressed issues, but it didn't feel like someone cribbed some headlines and then spat them back out line for line (and while it's a fantastic series, parts of it are fairly awkward by modern standards). Cap himself has been pretty political from the 70s onward, but there is marked difference between 'and it turned out that the Secret Empire that used a LITERAL WHEEL OF MUTANTS was actually run by the president himself *GASP*' and a "3 year story-arc turning Cap into a Hydra agent and taking over America as a dictator" that runs through half their titles.

Hell, in the original Englehart Story, Steve announces he's no longer going to be Cap...and then becomes Nomad in a couple of issues, has a replacement who immediately gets killed and then puts the costume back afterwards. There's a minor crossover with the Avengers, but that's about it.

[arilou_skiff]

"The president is literally a serpent-man" is a bit less subtle than this, I think.

I mean, Secret Empire has a bunch of problems, and it *is* fairly unsubtle, but the problems have more to do with the format and actual writing than it somehow being less subtle.

[icon_uk]

You mean the Serpent Society story where everyone gets turned into snake-people because Viper poisoned the water supply? Not sure that was intended as a political analogy quite that strongly.

[icon_uk]

In the 80's Gruenwald run Steve quits and becomes "The Captain" because he won't blindly follow orders, whilst a much more tow-the-line, Right-Wing guy becomes Captain America and it just plain doesn't work.

And that was STILL significantly less heavy handed than any of this, because it felt like a natural progression of the characters, whereas nothing about this story feels natural.

[superboyprime]

Seriously, icon? Did you not see the context of the quote? Is that the flag you want to march under, the people complaining about how the problem with Marvel is that they now have all those icky women working there and infecting stories with icky agenda? Jesus.

[icon_uk]

I'm not marching under any flag, I'm disagreeing with Spencers assertion that the writing in current comics is less politically heavy-handed than it used to be.

The fact it cropped up in a conversation about the despicable behaviour shown towards female creators who were out celebrating Flo Steinberg's life is almost a secondary consideration as far as I can tell

[superboyprime]

Since a big part of those complaints were that these female employees were pushing "SJW" agendas in comics unlike the good ol' days when writers supposedly just focused on telling good stories, I don't think you can separate matters so neatly.