Black Panther Annual #1

[history79]

Comments

[cyberghostface]

So Hudlin is to T’Challa as Ennis is to Punisher, right?

[doctornone]

Could you elaborate?

[cyberghostface]

Look at something like ‘Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe”. Ennis writes Frank as an Uber-Sue who’s able to defeat anyone in the MU with ease.

[goattoucher]

Eh. It's more of a Batman thing: Those with super-powers are so narcissistic that they can't fathom anybody beating them, which is a weakness one without powers can exploit.

Really, we have only seen him come against Namor (and their animosity is well earned). the idea of him taking out Doom isn't too much of a stretch: He is near Richards/Doom class in his intelligence, is familiar with magic, is one of the worlds supreme fighters, and is -far- more willing than Reed Richards to kill a man who threatens the world.

As for Magneto, I am more incredulous that he would remain a force of evil in the world than that T'Challa could take him out.

Killing three dudes isn't really Mary Sue territory. Not in a world with Ennis' Punisher, the Sentry, and the Hood.

[cyberghostface]

Well it’s that in top of several other characters (Ares and Iron Man apparently) as well as ruling the entire world.

[goattoucher]

Hmm. Tony is a spicy meatball, but he is also a narcissist, and if Cap can beat tony one on one...

Ares, while a moron, is a god. If you killed him, would he not come back... with a grudge?

As for ruling the Earth, would you consider Doom or Tony or Reed ruling the Earth to be Mary-Sueish? T'Challa is a super genius -and- has experience as a benevolent head of state.

I don;t know if I particularly like this future, and there is some stretching going on to be sure. I just don't know if there is Mary-Sueing going on. Was Thor Simonson's Mary Sue? Was 80's Daredevil Miller's? Was She-Hulk Byrne's?

[cyberghostface]

I’d have to see the stories in with Reed and Doom. Secret War for example has Doom running everything but ultimately concluded with everything falling apart and him having to admit he was inferior to Reed.

An easier example for me... Batman. I consider myself to be a fan obviously but he can be a huge Mary Sue when he’s not dealing with with ‘normal’ villains like Joker or Two-Face. It’s generally outside his own title but there’s a lot of wank about how Batman can defeat everyone with ‘prep time’.

[goattoucher]

Oh yes. Absolutely. Everybody is a Jobber for Batman, and yet he is still threatened by goons with guns when he gets back to Gotham after saving the universe.

But Batman is a great character. Keep him in Gotham facing the appropriate power level guys, and the stories and the character are great. He can even be good when he goes international (and faces enemies at the appropriate power level).

It's JL Batman that is the problem. He absolutely does -NOT- belong there, but you can't have a big name team without him, and you can't have him sit back on Oracle duty, coordinating the efforts of the team. He has to be out there kicking galactic ass, because that is what Batman does: he kicks ass.

When the material concerns of the publishing company rear their heads with an imperative that Batman fights outside his weight class, the story suffers.

With the Marvel examples above, many of the characters are flawed in their very conception: the writers want to introduce a new pet character for their pet story, but do not want to "waste time" developing that character over time, so they just drop them into the universe and everyone suddenly recognizes them.

[laughing_tree]

I don't see why Batman's out of place in that kind of environment any more than guys like Hawkman, Black Canary, Hawkeye, or Capt. America (comics version) are.

[goattoucher]

I agree. They are -all- out of place.

[laughing_tree]

So you think Hawkeye and Captain America should never have been Avengers?

[goattoucher]

Hawkeye? Yes. Absolutely. He is a guy with a bow and some trick arrows. He does not do anything (shoot/fight) that other Avengers don't do better (Iron Man/Cap or Thor by himself). Even Black Widow brings a more specialized skillset to the table, but she is best represented in a reserve capacity, as you don't need a sexy spy for many missions.

As for Cap: The Avengers are not the JL. The JL is -so- centered on global and galactic threats that their base is on a satellite. The stakes in the Marvel Universe tend not to be as high as they area in the DCU. Is there an invasion from space or a Nazi secret society? Yes, but the rank and file soldiers are jobbers, so a character like Cap can be helpful taking them out.

And, and this is key, if there is a bad guy who is -way- out of Cap's weight class, he will indeed stand back and coordinate the other Avengers without getting involved himself. That is the important difference between Cap and Batman: People read Batman to watch him kick ass using his skills and his wits. People read Cap to watch him lead and inspire people in order to save the day which -MAY- involve Cap kicking ass.

Does Cap face up tot he Big Bad? Sure, and it is forced and out of place, but let's compare:



Vs.



"Oh, but the Hellbat armor can kill Bruce!"

Yes, but it doesn't, does it?

Consider this then:



Bat's takes the beating, but he wins. He doesn't win in concert with the rest of the JL. HE wins. He outsmarts a god who has been devising sinister plots since before mankind climbed out of the trees.

P.S. For your amusement:

[goattoucher]

Nobody is to anything what Ennis is to Punisher.

And thank Those Who Dwell Below In Slumber that this is so.

[broblawsky]

Go read Valley Forge, Valley Forge and say that again.

[stubbleupdate]

Namor and T'Challa's relationship is pure gold.

When the Squadron Supreme killed Namor, did the writer make anything of the fact that T'challa was now Namor's king?

[shadowpsykie]

how did t'challa become namor's king?

[stubbleupdate]

Namor was dead.
T'Challa is King of the Dead
That makes Namor one of T'Challa's subjects.


(Bast made T'Challa king of the dead in Fantastic Four 607)

[doctornone]

Priest story was really really good - it felt like a really great reunion movie.

[crabby_lioness]

Not sure about Magneto either, but I could totally see Namor doing that.

[shadowpsykie]

T'Challa has a family? I MUST HAVE A FAMILY! No one out does Namor! The Submariner!TM! IMPERIOUS SEX!.. erm REX!

[joetuss]

Namor, and Vegeta should start a club.