She-Hulk Is the Same Thing As Hulk, Right?

[informationgeek]

Soooooo, about Avengers #2...














.....................................what the hell was that crap?

Comments

[reveen]

Wow, uhhh... is Jennifer doing a bit or something?

[berani00]

This was her back when she was Grey She-Hulk, right?
...Right?

[deh_tommy]

I think even Grey She-hulk was (however barely) more articulate than this. She was at least a violent beast driven by fear and grief, whereas this just seems like a generic “Hulk smash” persona.

[zachbeacon]

So what's the first instance of this kind of thing anyway? The Search for She-Hulk arc in Avengers?

[lordultimus]

Marvel fans: Hooray! Bendis is gone! Finally characters will act the way they're supposed to!

Jason Aaron: Hold my beer.

[kore]

HAH. //sob

[every_spiegel]

My thoughts exactly.

[dcbanacek]

What the HELL knocked a CELESTIAL on it's ass?

Also, I don't think Jennifer talked like that back in her ORIGINAL series from almost 40 years ago... geez, time flies.

[deh_tommy]

I think this is the first time main-universe She-Hulk actually talks and acts like this (I think).

[bruinsfan]

She sort of did very briefly in Ewing's Mighty Avengers when Monica Rambeau supercharged her with gamma rays and forced a transformation into a stronger, more brutish form. But even then, it was more like she was drugged or speaking through pain, not referring to herself in third person like her cousin.

[scorntx]

There was also a storyline in Geoff Johns' Avengers when she inhaled some death gas or something and went insane for a few issues.

There was also Avengers Disassembled

[deh_tommy]

Those were all due to some form of manipulation, though. Why does She-Hulk act like regular Hulk, here? This isn’t even consistent with Grey She-Hulk from her last run.

[crinos]

...Hey remember that time that She Hulk slept with the Juggernaut? And everyone gave her shit over it and slut shamed her in a court of law for it because apparently sex between two consenting adults is something worth being embarrassed over? And so they retconned it that it was a Jen who was a tourist from a parallel reality, and they explained that this parallel reality has people come over all the time and that's the reason for all these weird OOC moments and contradicitons in Marvel comics? Because apparently having sex with Juggernaut was such a black mark on Jen's ledger it had to be removed,

I'm not saying this characterization isn't more embarrassing than that subplot, but its pretty close.

[zachbeacon]

Well on fairness sleeping with a client is shady no matter who they are. I've always treated the comics by the writer responsible as non-canon so I probably wouldn't give it a second thought if not for Slott's need to retcon it away.

Aaron's Jen just seems another case of people not understanding that Bruce's big green (or grey) counterpart is the way he is because Bruce is mentally unstable, not because he's the Hulk. I dislike any attempt to apply the same logic to Jen, the Rosses, Amadeus, ect that they do to Bruce.

[crinos]

Yeah, I agree sleeping with a client is sketchy, but I don't think it was ever addressed from that angle when used to attack Jen. It was always "Oh my God Jen slept with the Juggernaut! The Juggernaut! Jen's a sluuuuut. Everyone laugh at the sluuuut."

[an_idol_mind]

I believe that Slott's objection to the Juggernaut thing was that he didn't think Jen would have slept with somebody who tried to murder her cousin.

Given the soap opera-like nature of superhero comics, I'm not sure that's a very good rationale.

[crinos]

To be fair who hasn't tried to murder the Hulk at this point.

Hell, at the point they were slut shaming her over this, Jen had been depowered by Tony's super hero suppresion nanites because she attacked him after finding out he and the Illuminati had shot Bruce into space, but that clearly didn't stop her from working with him later.

Besides, Juggernaut was a good guy at this point (I think? I know he was a good guy for a while).

[zachbeacon]

My involvement in online fandom at the time was mostly the now-defunct X-Fan/ComiX-Fan and I remember the general reaction being either "Way to go, Juggy" or "She-Hulk would never do that with a client"

I don't recall the slut shaming being a plot point until Slott's series and -given that the book started with her being thrown out of Avengers mansion for sleeping around - he wasn't particularly consistent on the POV. Early on it was portrayed as her hitting rock bottom. Later we got variations of "that wasn't me" ("it was a tourist from another Earth") and "Starfox did it" to explain some of her more promiscuous activities before and during the book.

[deh_tommy]

Really late to the punch, but to be fair I think that whole ‘alternate Earth bystander’ thing was mainly done to explain away the gross breach of lawyer-client conduct with Juggernaut.

[gnarll]

He couldn't be Jens client though. It was a Canadian court of law. Jen can't practice law in Canada, and she does not have a degree in Canadian law. At best she was there as some kind of advisor.

[deh_tommy]

According to the books (if I’m not mistaken), he was a client. Mind you, that was during Chuck Dixon’s run, so I’m not sure how much was retconned out.

[gnarll]

Yes, but what the book said could not be true. I mean, its not an obscure legal point, that different nations have different laws.

[zachbeacon]

Chuck Austen. Chuck Dixon is generally a good writer (recent propaganda aside)

[deh_tommy]

Graah, my sincerest apologies! I told myself not to make that mistake and I did that anyway. Sorry!

[philippos42]

No, this is far more embarrassing than banging Cain Marko. This is Marvel not even caring. I hope this book tanks, but I'm not hopeful this book tanks. This may be a lasting characterization for Jen now.

[kore]

I don't know who that is, but that is not my Jen.


(Tiny irrelevant nitpicky detail, but....she's from L.A.!)

[philippos42]

She's very definitely from Los Angeles. Marvel seems obsessed with dragging characters from the rest of the USA to NYC though. She-Hulk (L.A.) and Howard the Duck (Cleveland, I think?) were in the same office building in Brooklyn for a while.

[ericadawn16]

Did you ever read The She-Hulk Diaries?

[malitia]

The Loki parts are also postable from this in the "let's anger the fans" category. :/

[flint_marko]

What does he do?

[lordultimus]

It's looking like he's a villain again, regressing his character development from Agent of Asgard.

[scorntx]

His character development from Agent of Asgard.
And Young Avengers.
And Journey into Mystery.

In fact, all of the various Lokis and their character development since 2011. Possibly even earlier.

(Still waiting on Proper Loki and Verity stepping out of that door in the empty void...)

[ericadawn16]

I miss Verity so much...

[burkeonthesly]

I'd kind of like to see Loki and Verity hosting a run of What If--? It seems like it could fit their idiom and where they were left off.

[scorntx]

"Now, this one is What If-"
"No, Loki."
"What?"
""What If Steve Rodgers and Tony Stark Totally Did It?" is not a valid What If scenario."
"You don't know that's what I was going for!"
"A: I know you, B: I am standing right over your shoulder and saw you write it."
"... dammit."

[burkeonthesly]

[malitia]

And by villain imagine the worst monologuing, genocidal, cliched villainy ever. (And no there is no sign in this book that he doesn't mean it.)

[scorntx]

-there is no sign in this book that he doesn't mean it-

Well, there is that "I don't want to do this" line at one point.
Buuut being a cynical grump, I hafta say that sounds like a "there, now shut up and stop complaining, nerds!" kind of line.

[malitia]

At this point the worst thing to happen to Loki in this last decade is Jason Aaron.

[deh_tommy]

Seeing how Jason Aaron is (a)writing Thor at the moment, and (b)usually one to subvert expectations, I’d like to wait before jumping to outrage just yet (I am a bit confused on She-Hulk, though).

[malitia]

I was exactly on this opinion 2-3 years ago. Then he slowly burnt away my goodwill with his writing of Thor*.

* The War of Realms after overstaying it's welcome (and for me devaluing stories) for years might be ending in 2019. YAY! /s

[every_spiegel]

Weeell, no, he does say a bit about falling into the role, and then all things Loki say and do turn into that Cliched Villain pattern. So, that is deliberate. I guess. I hope. I know it's Aaron, we've talked about this...

[scorntx]

Hey, kids, remember when the Celestials were, like, super-duper unstoppable?
And by unstoppable we don't mean "needs a Hulk to stop", we mean "can't even be scratched by super-charged Odin" unstoppable?
Remember those days? Do ya, huh? Do ya?
Back before every five weeks there's a dead Celestial just... dropping out of the skies?
Logos, the Beyonders, that stupid axe from Remender's Avengers, freaking Kang, KANG of all people...

They've gone from utterly impenetrable and inscrutable beings to a whole species of freaking Waspinators.
(only without the lovableness, obviously.)

[gnarll]

So much this.

[wizardru]

Motto.

Of course, part of the problem is that the Celestials (and the Eternals, Deviants and all the rest) were NEVER intended to be part of the Marvel Universe proper. Even so, they used to be Galactus levels of nigh-Omnipotent. Like 'we have to figure out what they want, because we can't just punch the problem away'. The idea wasn't that they were simply BIG, but cosmic space gods who viewed humans as insects or perhaps bacteria. We're talking beings who could end the world WITH THEIR THUMB (literally).

[lordultimus]

At least Logos lampshaded their Worfiness.

[arilou_skiff]

Hey, after beating up Galactus got old, they've got to use SOMEone for a new punching bag.

Heck, they keep doing it to the Living Tribunal.

[scorntx]

I suspect the Living Tribunal has long been padding his CV.
For an entity supposed to be the right hand of Definitely Not God, his track record is...
... well, pish.

Like that What If...? with Korvac.
"A supernova will stop this guy!"
*Korvac stops it*
"Well, I tried guys. See ya."

[katefan]

Not the first time this sort of thing has happened. I've been watching this guy's videos on Youtube about the original Doctor Who series, breaking it down by the actors of the titular role. When the Time Lords first appeared they were ultra powerful, able to force The Doctor into regenerating and able to block his knowledge of time travel. The Doctor was well and truly afraid of them.

Fast forward decades to the Steven Moffat era and now the Time Lords are terrified of The Doctor for...reasons. Powerful, inscrutable beings are turned into whiny bureaucrats.

[scorntx]

The reason in that instance is Steven Moffat.
Dude is terrible at writing villains.

(... must resist urge to rant...)

[katefan]

I grew to loathe the man. I hated River Song, hated Clara Oswald, and he made The Doctor so awesomely powerful he blew up almost a whole Cyberman invasion fleet in Devil's Run. He's done a great deal of damage to the franchise and the falling ratings reflect this. I don't know if the new producer and Doctor are going to improve things.

[bruinsfan]

To be fair, the Doctor managed to singlehandedly (tredenhandedly?) rip their entire home planet out of spacetime and exile them into another universe, as an alternative to killing them all. And incidentally wiped out the largest Dalek armada in history in the process.

He's also time traveled so much by this point that all of history is riddled with his personal timeline like veins of mold in blue cheese, so that their usual tactic of pulling a threat out of time and trapping it in an eternal loop is useless for fear of the multiple apocalypses that could result.

[katefan]

I don't deny that the Troughton Doctor has undergone so many changes and garnered so much experience over the years that he's become quite formidable. I just miss the awesome interpretation of the Time Lords from the earlier era when they seemed so much more, well, competent. I don't know what you mean about the time loop, though.

[bruinsfan]

The Fourth Doctor revealed that was a tactic the Time Lords used against enemy races during the Sontaran invasion of Gallifrey. There are several canonical instances of them putting entire planets into a time loop: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Time_loop

[katefan]

Ah okay. Thanks for the link.

[strejdaking]

What's in-universe explanation for Jen acting like this?

[every_spiegel]

Funny thing is I don't know Jen at all and I also read this community via rss so I didn't see the preview text or tags, I plainly guessed from the title of the post that it is about Avengers #2.
Good job, Aaron, good job -_-

[matrix_dragon]

What the HELL.

[randyripoff]

I just read this.

Every. Single. Character. Felt. Off.

As if the last 50 years of characterization were basically ignored. Everyone is way too glib, and the big reveal of the heel wasn't exactly hard to figure out well ahead of time.

This just wasn't good. At all.

[katefan]

I don't know who is to blame, the writer or the editors. Or both?

[matrix_dragon]

I got the first issue, despite my many problems with Aarons Thor run. And that's the same impression I got. It didn't feel like any of the heroes I knew, just people dressed up like them.

[gnarll]

I reread it pretending to myself it was an Exiles story and these were alternate universe versions of the characters. Much better.