ns: GAMERS RISE UP

[deh_tommy]

 

Joker is out today!

 

Whether you’ve seen the film or just want to talk about the thing in general, what are your thoughts?

Beware of spoilers below!

Comments

[cyberghostface]

Going to be seeing it tonight, will come back with my thoughts later.

My only real issue is having Bruce Wayne as a kid and Joker being middle-aged. It means Batman would be beating up a sixty year old or so Joker. But who knows, maybe Joker can discover a Lazarus pit and rejuvenate himself down the line.

[leahandillyana]

Mediocre. Pandering to progressive audiences, basically a revange fantasy against the rich, but not much depth. I am particularly salty about elements of Jason's backstory being used for the Joker, and him not being Jack Napier.

[deh_tommy]

I hope you enjoy yourself! Joaquin Phoenix’s portrayal actually reminded me a lot of Telltale’s Joker.

[lucean]

I absolutely loved the film. There's so much I could say about it, and kind of want to say, but I don't know how much sense it does to dive in on a such level here. However, as much as I adored the film, I can easily see why it will probably be such a divisive film.

The big thing is the third act, naturally. When what happens there happens, I felt I had got what the films approach the Joker was, what he represented, and because of that a lot of the stuff and the climax there really popped for me. Yet if the build doesn't for someone else, those final moments are going to come across very differently and probably feel underwhelming to a degree.

One thing, though, that I will stand by is that the performance that Phoenix does in the film is superb. And what I really appreciated is that not only did the film not try to emulate Ledger's Joker, it took a drastically different approach to the character, which in turn really allowed Phoenix to make it feel his own.

[mazway_75]

I liked this better the first time I saw it when it was "The King of Comedy."

[ironymaiden]

Could you unpack "pandered to progressive audiences"? I thought this was a very unappealing Joker who says repeatedly that he is not political.

[leahandillyana]

Like I said, it's a revange fantasy against the rich, and fantasising about violence against the rich is nowadays a common leftist fantasy - however, the film doesn’t dwell on the problems, only skimming the surface level, thus pandering.

[lucean]

But this argument doesn't make any sense. I'm not claiming that you are wrong about not liking the film, but rather this specific gripe is a really weird one.

For it to be a revenge fantasy, the film would have to present the Joker as someone in the right for his actions and it sure as hell goes out of its way to avoid that. Furthermore it is also clear that he doesn't actually have anything against the rich, as he is simply parroting what everyone else says because he himself does not believe in anything. Even the rioters are just projecting their own issues on him.

[lucean]

Upon further though, there is one scene I want to bring up because I thought it was probably the most comic book oriented meta-moment. However, it also the second to last scene.

When they hit that 'You wouldn't get it' as they showed the birth of the Batman, I was so completely in as the Batman is the biggest joke of it all for Joker. I also loved that scene as there, Phoenix managed to sell it like this was the final form of the Joker, that he had finally truly been born. I'm not even certain when the scene took place, though, as I thought the interviewer was the same therapist that he had been seen earlier, but now had more grey in her hair. Which might indicate that this was years later after those events, but I'm not certain in anyway.

Also on the Wayne scene, I still would accept if someone argued to me that it didn't really happen and it was actually one of Joker's hallucinations, but I do think it probably really took place within the film for two reasons. One is the meta-narrative, as a Joker needs a Batman, but also because the death of Martha was shown from Bruce's perspective and I just don't think Arthur had it in him to see anything from someone else's perspective.

[mastermahan]

Shallow, predictable, repetitive, and not nearly as smart as it seemed to think it was. Yes, Phoenix gave a great performance, but he deserved a better script, better direction, and a deeper character.

And as a Joker film? If you changed all the names, you'd never be able to tell this is supposed to be the Joker. Fleck isn't smart. He isn't funny. Worst of all, he's passive. The ill-defined clown movement is basically a coincidence. Fleck only ends up on live tv for the climax not because of anything he does, but because the universe arranges for it to happen.

I would, however, love to see an alternate universe where Bruce Wayne is inspired by The Gay Blade of Zorro.

[mastermahan]

I mean, this Bruce comes across as a particularly dumb kid. A malnourished retiree might be all he can handle.

[cyberghostface]

Thanks. :) Telltale’s Joker is one of my favorite takes on him.

[locuatico]

"Pandering to progressive audiences"
Okay, have you SEEN progressive audiences? they are more on Birds of Prey (at least until they showed Cass throwing a TNT in the trailer...)

[dcbanacek]

I would, however, love to see an alternate universe where Bruce Wayne is inspired by The Gay Blade of Zorro.

The George Hamilton film? Yeah, that would be fun.

[lucean]

When I first saw the title, I thought it was a joke or something. Then I was shocked when I googled it and found out that they really put an adventure film with that name in 1981.

[silverhammerman]

Haven't seen it yet, but based on what I've heard about the movie calling it progressive surprises me, especially given The Discourse around it. I understand it's rooted in the 80's and the failures of trickle down economics and the destruction of the social safety net, but it sounds like a pretty standard anti-elites affair, no different from something like Fight Club and Tyler Durden's nominally populist politics. I mean it's an Angry White Dude movie, I don't think those are considered very progressive at this point.

[icon_uk]

Well, it's not quite/just an adventure film, it's a comedy adventure about Don Diego's gay identical twin Ramón (now calling himself "Bunny Wigglesworth"), showing up to take over from Diego's when he's injured.

It being 1981, it's not exactly... subtle though it does seem to echo "The Rainbow Batman, in more ways that one!

[ironymaiden]

Thanks for summing this up. I agree.

[commodus]

I'm seeing it with my brother next week. A bit worried because I am mentally ill, and don't like films like Awakenings or the Elephant Man which deal with themes of illness and social alienation - they can legit put me in a really bad place. So I'm really hoping it's not too depressing.

[mastermahan]

Imagine it. The Gotham of this movie is relentlessly cruel and depressing - but its vigilante protector is a campy, flamboyant fop.

Although no, the film did not age well.

[nate_abril96]

Watched it with my girlfriend last night. She loved it. I liked it fine, but man, I can see why people would not like it. Not just for the problematic issues (the possibility of certain audience members to interpret Arthur as a hero, and how almost every person who is an obstacle or rude to Arthur being a person of color), but because it's really easy to make fun of if you're not a fan of DC doing dark films. So if people don't like this film I can see why, and if you weren't a fan of the trailers then the movie isn't going to change your mind.

All that being said, this is like the fifth time they showed the Waynes getting shot. I swear they better not show that scene again in Matt Reeves' The Batman.

PS Joaquin Phoenix was amazing. Hope he finally gets his Oscar.

[cyberghostface]

Joaquin was great and I really felt for him here. His performance was heartbreaking. That being said I would have liked to see more of a flamboyant and theatrical Joker.

As far as origins go I think I prefer The Killing Joke and Telltale but this was still a solid one.

[nightauditguy]

Didn't hate it, but I didn't love it.

[shadowkat]

Also doesn't the whole "fantasy about stealing from or hurting the rich" date back to the Middle Ages?
I mean, we have this in Dickens, the Robin Hood Legends, Victor Hugo's Les Miserables, etc. It's a hardly a new trope.

Nor would I call it particularly a left or progressive fantasy.

[shadowkat]

Curious, how similar is it to The King of Comedy?