Star Wars: The Rise of Kylo Ren #4

[cyberghostface]

Comments

[kd_the_movie]

Disney: "But really guys, hes just misunderstood!"

[cyberghostface]

No one said he was misunderstood. But he was still a tragic villain who ultimately redeemed herself. Like Darth Vader who was significantly worse in a number of respects.

[strejdaking]

No, TROS absolutely retcons his backstory at the last second to make him misunderstood.

[cyberghostface]

How?

[strejdaking]

Revealing this whole time he was literally having voices in his head from Palpatine. Though I suppose it was about time to reveal why he turned evil third movie in (and no, I don't think "Luke tried to kill him cause he was already turning evil" is sufficent).

[cyberghostface]

We already thought it was Snoke manipulating him so Palpatine pretending to be Snoke instead doesn’t really mitigate anything.

[strejdaking]

Manipulating, not literally giving him fake mental illness.

Also, I think it's disengenuous to say he's just like Vader. I mean, if they that story today, that would suck too, but novelty aside, revealing terrifying villain was a tragic figure who redeems himself was subversive and interesting. Sad boy villain that from the first second got everyone woobifying him based on zero evidence, turning out to have goodness inside him all along and doing a grand gesture to redeem himself, getting intant forgiveness and conveniently dying (while sucking the face of the woman he abused) is painfully lazy and cheap.

[cyberghostface]

There’s nothing disengenuous about the comparison. If you’re ok with the child murderer who choked his wife and cut off his son’s hand redeeming himself then acting like it’s somehow beyond the pale for Kylo Ren to redeem himself is a bit hypocritical.

[donnblake]

What if I also don't buy that Vader lashing out in murderous rage against someone who was denying him something he wanted (a son/apprentice to rule with) redeemed him for his abusive behavior and decades of support of a tyrannical and genocidal regime?

[cyberghostface]

Then you’re at least consistent.

[donnblake]

Not that this is just a Star Wars thing- it's not uncommon for a story to go "This guy's been a murderous and abusive monster to everyone he's met for years/decades/centuries, but now they've reconciled with the one person they have a personal connection with, so all is forgiven."

It comes out of the friction of trying to tell a story with both grand and personal stakes, I suppose. See also- Steven Universe and the Diamond Authority.

[leahandillyana]

The Diamond's do their damnest to repairs all the things they have destroyed though, in both metaphorical and literal sense.

[leahandillyana]

I find reading about some sad woobie turning to villainy to be ten times more interesting than a "redemption equals death" plot twist for a villain who has almost no backstory. Watch Death Note anime, watch Code Geass if you prefer a protag who is actually a genius than a protag whom the writer wants to portray as a genius, watch Gundam the Origin if you prefer more miliatary action.

[fra080389]

Are you talking about Mello? Death didn't redeemed Light in any way.

[leahandillyana]

I listed DN as an example of medium with woobie villain protagonist, though the series puts much more emphasis on villain than woobie part (Code Geass, Gundam and Black Butler do the opposite).

[janegray]

For what it's worth, while I intensely dislike Kylo Ren, I also never bought Vader's redemption either.

Dude spends 20 years committing genocides, but he saves his own DNA at the last second, and for that he gets immediately admitted into Force Paradise?

People say that Dragon Ball redeemed Vegeta too easily, but there actually was a really good scene when Vegeta is about to pull a heroic sacrifice, and he asks Piccolo if he'll get to see Goku in Heaven. Piccolo flat out tells him that no, even if Vegeta dies to save the world now it's too little too late, he is going to hell anyway. It wasn't until after Vegeta came back to life and started actively living as a good person that he was finally acknowledged as good.

While DB later fucked up that message by casually accepting effin' Frieza of all people, at the time I really liked it. FINALLY a rejection of the Moral Myopia trope!

[gnarll]

I thought the movies would have been netter with Vaders force ghost running around, still being mostly Vader.

[lego_joker]

I get what you're saying, but it seems a bit undercut by the fact that by that point, DB death was almost as big a joke as DC/Marvel death.

[icon_uk]

Yeah, RotJ might have STARTED the redemption process for Vader but he had a long way to go before he got full absolution and that needed to be reflected, certainly he shouldn't have immediately returned as a cheery Jedi Force Ghost like that.

[leahandillyana]

And I really enjoyed Vegeta getting a second chance. Just as I enjoyed the Demon Sisters, Sailor Galaxia and all of Dark Moon Circus getting a second chance in Sailor Moon. It's a quintessentially Christian message - a strong desire to do good is enough. You recognize you did a bad thing and you want to change, and you are accepted. I find it fascinating that the stories that push that message were not created by Christians.

[scorntx]

Here lies Ren, who died as he lived.
Shirtless.

[super_fly]

Young Kylo: wears a few different outfit as he goes through his journey
Young Rey: Smaller version of the exact same thing she wore in TFA

Knights of Ren: Thisactionissointensewearebeingflunginevery directionnnnnn....

Was that a rhetorical question Ben? You really didn't give her like any time to answer.

[tripodeca113]

Poor Kylo Ren being tormented with a vision of Rise of Skywalker.

[agharta75]

No Kylo Stimpy?