icon_uk: Mod Squad icon (Mod Squad)
[personal profile] icon_uk posting in [community profile] scans_daily
A subject that has been brought to the Mod Team's attention lately is the use and impact of the "Ban User" blocking function, and we have been discussing how we wish to address it within Scans_Daily.

Let us state, first and foremost, that your privacy and security should always be paramount. No member should ever take action which might, in any way, make then feel unsafe.

The "Ban User" functionality on Dreamwidth is very straightforward, hovering over a users avatar will show "Ban User" as an option. This is not a group dependent function, it's automatically available to anyone with a DreamWidth account.

We, as a Mod Team, will never use "Ban User" on a member (Our ultimate sanction for members is temporary suspension/permanent expulsion from the Scans_Daily community as part of the Disciplinary process, but "Ban User" is not part of that process).

In turn, members are not expected to use "Ban User" on a Mod, as we have a requirement to be able to reply to any and threads and posts if/when the need arises.

As and when Mod's change, the same will be true for any new Mod coming on.

If you have concerns over a particular Mod, then they can be raised with the Mod Team for discussion, we're not a monolithic entity and will seek to address any concerns fairly and equitably.

Please note that Mods cannot undo someone's "Ban User" choices, that is linked to your own account, not the Scans_Daily account.

However, something to bear in mind is that "Ban User" is VERY powerful.

If you have used "Ban User" on someone then they not only cannot reply to you directly, but they cannot reply to anyone's comments on any post you are the creator of.

Thus if you reply on a post, then someone on your "Ban User" list cannot reply to you, and if you have made a post, someone who is on your "Ban User" list cannot interact with any comments on that post.

So, whilst who you choose to block is your own affair, we would ask that it be kept to a minimum amongst scans_daily members wherever possible. Blocking prevents conversation and the general flow of discussion, which is a large part of our raison d'etre, and can also cause stress to the person who finds that they cannot comment, especially if the person you have blocked is unaware that you have done so, or the reasons you might have done so.

If members have concerns on this topic please feel free to raise them here, or contact the Mods via our usual contact of scansdailymod[at]gmail[dot]com . We can't promise we'll know all the answers immediately, but we'll do our best to address them.

Thank you

The Scans_Daily Mod Team
aeka / icon_uk / sistermagpie

Date: 2021-07-14 01:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
If you have used "Ban User" on someone then they not only cannot reply to you directly, but they cannot reply to anyone's comments on any post you are the creator of.

Which doubtless suits the most ban-happy members of our happy little clan just fine, as it allows them to exert complete control over the narrative.

Date: 2021-07-14 04:46 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Yep. If I'm the only person here who posts Red Sonja scans (and I pretty much am) then I can just bin the people who I don't like from replying to me and so curate the community's Red Sonja discussion.

I brought this first to the Mod's attention because a significant amount of content in one theme week was from a user who had blocked me, thus keeping me from interacting with the content.

Date: 2021-07-14 05:52 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
No disrespect intended, but if somebody dislikes you enough to block you, then presumably that person would not be happy about getting a bunch of your comments in their inbox as a result of you interacting with their posts. Thus, presumably, that person might be inclined to simply decide that it's not worth it, and not post anything.

At least for me, making a post takes a non-insignificant amount of time and effort at a time when I'm already severely lacking in spoons to begin with, and if I had to do it knowing that it would forcibly require me to interact with a person I am not fond of, I would definitely just throw my hands up. I'm on scans_daily to relax and have fun, and have negative interest in being anybody's captive audience.

Conversely, if the person I'm not fond of is creating a narrative I strongly dislike, that could be the trigger to make me get off my butt and post something about that particular topic. Just because they have so far been the only person here who posts scans about that topic doesn't mean it has to keep being that way. There is absolutely nothing preventing a banned user from making their own posts to change the narrative.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-14 11:04 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
No disrespect intended, but if somebody dislikes you enough to block you, then presumably that person would not be happy about getting a bunch of your comments in their inbox as a result of you interacting with their posts. Thus, presumably, that person might be inclined to simply decide that it's not worth it, and not post anything.

Yes, that would be a desirable outcome on my part. Thank you for articulating my wish, probably better than I could.

As to your other comment, when the creator of the narrative that I strongly dislike is spitting in the face of this community's supposed "anti-racist ... woman-friendly and otherwise discrimination and harassment free" atmosphere, and you're all letting them do it, I'm not all that motivated to help the rest of you.
Edited Date: 2021-07-14 11:05 pm (UTC)

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 02:37 am (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
You do you, person I've never seen here before.

Me, even if I personally dislike someone, I still very much don't want them to stop posting. Scans_Daily is the one (1) Community I'm left with after LiveJournal went the way of the dodo and every other social media embraced the streaming and hate-click models. You ever tried to have a multi-person discussion on Twitter? On Instagram? On Facebook? On Tumblr? Would. Not. Recommend. And Scans_Daily lives or dies depending on the post flow. So a reduction in flow because I literally annoyed someone out of contributing to it is most definitely not a desirable outcome on my part.

Also I was referring to "changing the narrative" as in offering alternate character interpretations or highlighting a writer's strengths and weaknesses, not fighting with the other poster. If they are being a bigoted bully, dealing with them is the mods' job, not mine. And frankly I'm calling bull at your implication that they haven't been doing their job or that you could do any better.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 02:52 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
Sorry to hear about your you-problems, but as I have plenty of other places I can go, the loss of certain sacks of shit who post here wouldn't bother me a bit.

If they are being a bigoted bully, dealing with them is the mods' job, not mine. And frankly I'm calling bull at your implication that they haven't been doing their job

And yet cyberghostface goes right on posting here.

or that you could do any better.

Don't recall implying that, not responsible for your inferences.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 03:07 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
You want to give me an example of being a bigoted bully, go ahead (and yes I temporarily unblocked you just now). Just because you’ve been the one harassing me and making stuff up about me even though I tried to call a truce.
Edited Date: 2021-07-15 03:09 am (UTC)

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 03:26 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/5536239.html#comments

You have made your bigotry against Muslims very clear through your support of Miller's 300 and Holy Terror, and your obvious misogyny is also readily apparent. If you are, as has been implied elsewhere, a woman, then you are one of those types who writes love letters to serial killers, putting you in the same exalted company as Ayn Rand which I'm sure makes you very happy, and you doubtless watched the scenes of [i]Daredevil[/i] and [i]Jessica Jones[/i] featuring the only characters you found interesting -- the rapist and the murderous gangster -- with one hand very busy.

You are a plague on this board.
Edited Date: 2021-07-15 03:44 am (UTC)

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 03:52 am (UTC)
sara: "One or two of them are trying to start a new society, but it's not working." (start a new society)
From: [personal profile] sara
I know neither of you but this kind of ad hominem crap isn't a reasonable way to speak to other people and you should knock it off.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 03:58 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Yeah my obvious misogyny is… what? Finding the villains interesting? I always find the villains interesting. This is up there with you accusing Bendis of wanting to rape women because he wrote a fictional rapist. (It’s very telling though that you think the only reason one can like a character or an actor’s performance is sexual gratification.)

And yeah I stand by my views that religion is not above criticism regardless of which one.

Edit: And now he’s going to my other posts to troll. That’s what you get for giving someone a chance. Blocked again.
Edited Date: 2021-07-15 04:08 am (UTC)

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 04:04 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
In response to the post you didn't let me respond to:

I always find the villains interesting.

You find the villains interesting as long as they're men who hurt women. The female villains you pour boundless contempt on.

And wanting to engage in genocide is not criticism.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 04:29 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
I unblocked you and within minutes you went and tried to harass me in an unrelated topic like a child. I was going to give you the window of a few days but you couldn’t help yourself.

I’ve never condoned any form of genocide. You are lying as you always do.

You are also lying about my interest in villains. They run the entire gamut from Magneto to Leatherface (and no liking Leatherface doesn’t mean I want to eat people). As for my issues regarding female villains, you are once again being a liar. I think I’ve called out characters like Mystique for being awful and treated like heroes after but I’ve said the same thing about Daken and Punisher.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 04:36 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
And again:

I unblocked you and within minutes you went and tried to harass me in an unrelated topic like a child.

I was expressing my genuine opinion that I feel disgusted to have enjoyed the same thing as you. If you view my self-disgust as harassment, that's a you problem.

Given that you defended Hannibal as well as admitting to liking Leatherface, I'd say the odds of you fantasizing about eating people are pretty high. Also, these are my sincere and genuine thoughts. If they are mistaken, that's life. But they are not falsehoods. I am not lying.

And now you are replying to me while preventing me from replying to you. How mature.

Before you say that I can easily stop you from replying -- I don't censor people. That's one more way that I'm not a fascist, like yourself.
Edited Date: 2021-07-15 04:42 am (UTC)

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 04:50 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Given that you defended Hannibal as well as admitting to liking Leatherface, I'd say the odds of you fantasizing about eating people are pretty high.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 04:53 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
Wow, that sure showed me who's boss.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 05:31 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
Blocking somebody on dreamwidth does not make one a fascist. Not is it censorship, really.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 05:39 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
You're right, that's not fascist. Speaking approvingly of the extrajudicial execution of 'terrorists', on the other hand ... https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/9206003.html?thread=212917491#cmt212917491

And yes it is censorship, we're just going to have to disagree on that.

Edited Date: 2021-07-15 05:40 am (UTC)

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 06:13 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
You’re not going to change anyone’s mind here about cyberghostface in this thread, surely you must know that by now. And they’re the poster that I have a mutual blocking relationship with

And as your own behavior has amply demonstrated on this thread, the block function doesn’t control what you can and can’t say, it just changes where you can say it. It is establishing personal space

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 06:19 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
I don't care about changing peoplle's minds. Change must come from within. I will speak the truth as I know it, until they take that freedom away from me as they have taken so many others.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 03:11 am (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Cyberghostface? You are accusing Cyberghostface, one of the nicest and most polite members who has never broken a rule in 15 years, of being a bigoted sack of shit so horrible you'd rather see the whole Community go down than letting her continue to post?

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooookay.

You know what, I don't think we can ever understand each other, so I'm backing off. Addio.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 04:18 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
Yeah, sooooo polite.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 05:08 am (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Dude, you had to go back six years to find some comments of hers that might possibly be interpreted as bad. And you have been relentlessly throwing ad hominem at her even in completely unrelated posts, as well as lying and gaslighting, and framing her desire to get away from you as being a fascist.

Please never reply to me again, because I find you genuinely upsetting.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 05:26 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
I don’t have any vested interest in starting another snipefest, but your impression of Cyberghostface is not, I believe, a universal one.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 05:27 am (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Fair.

Generally I have a very favourable view of Cyberghostface because they are the only one who thought of reaching out with kindness to History79 and talk with them in DM, instead of shit talking them over differences of opinion in amount and priority of posts.

Plus, in the old days of pre-Under The Red Hood, when bashing my comfort character Jason Todd was a popular past time and I couldn't check a single post about him without seeing scores of people talking wistfully about his painful death and bragging about voting yes on the phone poll and victim blaming the literal 14-year-old for being sold out by his mother, I appreciated that Cyberghostface was always defending him.
Edited Date: 2021-07-15 05:35 am (UTC)

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 05:36 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
IIRC that user blocked me because he disagreed with me over Ray Fisher’s complaints about Joss Whedon and Warner Bros. (I supported Fisher, he thought Fisher was misrepresenting the situation).

Date: 2021-07-15 09:44 am (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Excellent use of the opening "No disrespect intended, but..." gambit.

On the whole, I broadly agree that it is useful for posters to be able to curate their own viewing experience. However, thie can come at the expense of the whole community experience. Dreamwidth is not designed to be a forum, as others have pointed out. I have dozens of users set to Ignore on a forum, but it just hides their content from me, rather than stopping them form posting in threads I began. That functionality would be preferable, but sadly not possible with the Dreamwidth tools.

Finally, I understand and appreciate your point about how much effort goes into making good quality posts. You undermine that point with your final paragraph saying that nothing is stopping other people from making such good quality posts to redress the balance. This also does not account for one user reaching the posting limit of a book very early, thus locking any other users out of creating their own posts in the topic

Date: 2021-07-15 10:33 am (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
...What gambit? I was just trying not to rub salt in the wound and blame you about you being blocked, especially since I don't know who blocked you and why. I don't do passive-aggressive, if I'm using disclaimers is because I'm genuinely trying not to offend the people I'm talking to.

My idea is that, if you are really frustrated about the way a different poster is curating a series/character, then you are motivated to do something about it. That motivation is absent if you have to create the posts in the first place and there is nothing to respond to. Same reason a lot of people normally don't write fanfiction, but decide to write a fix-it after canon does something especially irritating.

It does not account for that because it has nothing to do with the topic of blocking. Even if nobody is blocking anybody, the page limit is still there.

Date: 2021-07-15 11:35 am (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
I work on the assumption that the phrases "no offence", "no disrespect intended" and the like are just preparing the listener for exactly what follows, but employing the get out of jail disclaimer beforehand.

And you are correct that the existing community posting limits (which I wrote) can serve to limit the number of people who can make posts related to a particular title. However, being banned from the only discussion happening on this community and with no community sanctioned outlet to begin your own discussion does not do much for community engagement.

The debate between you and I seems to be over the conflict of what is in the interests of posters and what is in the best interests of the community.

Date: 2021-07-15 11:58 am (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
And I work on the assumption that if you have known somebody for well over a decade you are at least somewhat familiar with their personality, and aware that they have never employed such cheap tactics.

I know we have never been fond of each other due to very different personalities, and I'm even kinda salty that a couple of times I tried getting friendly by asking you questions in your own posts and you never replied and left me hanging even if it was a topic you were apparently passionate about, but now I'm feeling insulted that you just automatically jumped to the worst possible conclusion.

In any case, my take is that the interests of posters and the interests of the community are intertwined. Because the community lives and dies depending on the post flow, and we LJ veterans have all seen what happens when the post flow dries up. So anything that worsens the posters' experience here (such as being made to interact with somebody they don't get along with) risks driving people away, or at the very least turning them into passive lurkers, and consequently killing the community.

I think there is a balance to consider, and ultimately I believe there are decent enough outlets for the scenario you describe. For example, if you are very frustrated with the ongoing narrative about a series or character but the page limit has already been reached and you can't comment on those posts, you could make your own no_scans posts. Throw in a few fanart/commissions/cover art to make the post more visually inviting and put in your thoughts about the storyline and characterization in exam.

Date: 2021-07-15 12:35 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
I am genuinely sorry that I have, through my actions and inactions, rebuffed your attempts to build a relationship, and apologise for it.

This is not exclusive to you when I say that I don't pay too much attention to the personalities of the big name posters. I know that somebody uses contractions excessively, and somebody posts scans with completely no context ever, but even with a multiple choice quiz I would struggle to match names to posting habits. Some posters are even less distinct.

Please be reassured that this isn't a case of being mutually antagonistic and I do not and have not borne you any ill will.


Date: 2021-07-15 03:46 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Date: 2021-07-14 01:56 pm (UTC)
dcbanacek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dcbanacek
"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - Tyrion Lannister

I think that sums up my opinion of it best.

Date: 2021-07-14 04:06 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Very happy with how you have handled this, this is exactly what I had been hoping for :)

Date: 2021-07-14 04:31 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
So two things that I would appreciate an official mod clarification on:

1. The creation of alt accounts to get around blocks. I realize that this is hard to prove but it would be nice to have clarification on the community policy with regards to this. Would it be different if the account was only used to reply to others on posts created by the blocking individual

2. Replying to people you have blocked but who have not returned the block. This seems disingenuous at best and bullying at worst.

Date: 2021-07-14 04:44 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
2 - That's my general vibe on it too.

Date: 2021-07-14 10:00 pm (UTC)
obsidianwolf: 3 of 3 Icons I never change (Default)
From: [personal profile] obsidianwolf
Yeah I' agree we need clarification on these two things.

I mean 1 is straight up disrespecting someone's boundaries and is a red flag example of behavior that definitely makes a community unsafe and 2 is a person being an ass to get the last word esp if it's recurring behavior. I mean it's one thing if a person just forgets they blocked someone but it's another entirely if it becomes their entire method of handling disagreement.

Other than wanting clarification on those two things I'm fine with what the mods have decided.

Date: 2021-07-15 05:08 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Also, what if multiple people are having a conversation and one of them has you blocked, and you respond to what they're saying but in a reply to someone else?

I have to say, while I'm not philosophically opposed to blocking other users, the "ban user" feature on dw seems to not be all that useful. Like, cyberghostface has cricharddavies blocked, and yet there they are a few posts up, having a pretty nasty back-and-forth.

Date: 2021-07-15 01:35 pm (UTC)
shadowseeking: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowseeking
I thought they mentioned unblocked them specifically for the back-and-forth

Date: 2021-07-16 01:04 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
They unblocked them for one comment and then blocked them again immediately after, but obviously the exchange goes on for far longer than that. And then further down below they're back at it again, so the ban function does not really do anything to prevent this stuff from happening.

Date: 2021-07-15 09:27 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
Okay, so to reframe my thoughts, what I feel this announcement is missing is an address regarding how the ban function can be abused and how it can be circumvented and a clear statement as to how those will be addressed by the mod team going forward.

The block can be circumvented by creating a new account. SD has few restrictions on who can join only banning people when they cause trouble. What’s more, when a member attempted to raise the subject of a fellow member who they believed had changed their name they were shut down by the rule (I’m not sure this is a rule, it may just be a more) that we do not speculate about other members’ identities. At the time, I believe, the very existence of the ban function was not well-known, so the disconnect between this rule/more and the protection the ban function provides was not brought up, but I feel like we need an official way to address this.

At the same time, it can feel like the creation of an alt identity to comment on a posters’ posts but on replies to others is a victimless act that addresses the intent of the ban function without restricting their participation in the group unduly. I’m not saying that I believe in this interpretation, but I do think it needs to be addressed in the rules, even if just to be dismissed as a justification

The ban function, as we’ve seen above, can also be circumvented by responding to others’ comments or even your own with a comment addressed to the user utilizing that function. My feeling is that this needs to be included in the rules to shut that shit down ASAP.

Conversely, the ban function can be abused by banning somebody and then responding to them to get the last word. While this seems pretty cut and dried, it’s also true that nearly every ban will have an inciting incident. Whilst the posters I have/will have banned have been the culmination of a lifetime of membership interactions, the moment at which I did it would undoubtedly seem that I did so to get my way

Likewise, the ban function can be abused by banning a user and then posting issues that you know they will want to comment on. We all have our favorite characters and titles that we love to post about and it would be a profoundly petty act to ban a user and then proceed to post about every issue featuring them within minutes of their digital release, thus preventing them from commenting on said character

Before the above conversation got out of control (very, very quickly I might add), some good points were raised with regards to how this function both restricts AND facilitates the free exchange of ideas. One way or another the way this function is used will shape the direction of this community, and while I appreciate the informative post and it’s recommended course of action, I feel that some stronger boundaries with regards to its use are necessary to establish this community’s future growth in a positive direction

More specifically, as much as I would prefer a ban function closer to the way it works on other forums where it serves as a reminder that the post you are about to read may be stressful but leaves the choice to read and respond solely to you and then, we can’t reprogram dreamwidth at this time and will need to live with the ban function as it exists now. While not being able to comment on certain posts is definitely annoying, I’d prefer that the user(s?) that have me blocked keep me blocked, so as to prevent the likelihood of me forgetting who I am talking to and accidentally entering into the same types of conversations that I have found so stressful in the past. I don’t want any sort of public “shame” list but I almost feel like we would need some sort of database as to who was blocked by which user and why so that we can best address whether any given incident is a violation of the spirit of the incidence or not and to make sure people are aware of a block so they can reciprocate

Date: 2021-07-15 11:29 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
IMO, the ban function only really works to prevent user from commenting on one's post, and has significantly reduced utility when it comes to the comments section, because you don't need to reply directly to someone's comment to make it visible to them. Someone can comment "This is great, I love this!" on a post, and even though they have blocked me, I can still totally comment right beneath, "Wow, this sucks because of x, y, and z, can't believe people like this," etc.

Of course, this is very (very) passive-aggressive, but it is difficult to imagine a functioning moderation policy that forbids people from posting an opinion just because someone who has blocked you has already posted their opinion first. Or vice-versa, if you're not supposed to respond to people you've blocked. To add to this, there are comment chains which have multiple people corresponding in them - how does this work, if you want to participate in the conversation, are you at some point in the chain allowed to respond to someone who has responded to a person who blocked you / you have blocked?

Adding to this, I simply do not know everyone who has blocked me, and I'm not sure if there's any functionality to find that out. I learned just recently that dw still lets you write out a reply to people who have you blocked, it just tells you that you're blocked when you try to post it. So I don't know how to learn if someone has blocked me short of writing out a reply to them and seeing if it goes through, and I don't want to try replying to people who I suspect have animus with me just to check.

Date: 2021-07-15 02:22 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
Ultimately it will fall on the mods, as human beings, to enforce one way or another. Based on past performance, I have every reason to believe that they will err on the side of keeping posters around but even if we get an official policy of “hey, that’s not cool” followed by no other action it should have a positive effect on the community overall

Something like one person saying they liked a book while the other responds with saying they do like the book would likely be ignored for at least the first couple of comments until it became obvious that one or more of them were circumventing a ban and shut down then, but someone posting “ignore them, they don’t know what they’re talking about” might not be allowed to go on at all. It’s really up to the mods and/or the participants in the discussion

And, yeah, it sure sucks writing out a comment either long and detailed or just short and pithy before finding out that you’re banned, but it should only happen once.

Date: 2021-07-16 01:23 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
It just feels to me that any sort of enforcement amounts to telling the users to ignore each other, but if the users were capable of simply ignoring each other, then ... it wouldn't have escalated to banning in the first place, y'know?

Also, if I'm being frank, I do not believe that a user should be able to post on a topic and prevent even indirect interaction from people who disagree with them. For example, I am banned by velacron. If velacron posts some shit about Kyle Rittenhouse being totally justified in crossing state lines and killing people, I am not going to ignore that, and I do not want to be sanctioned by mods for informing other users of the extent of velacron's extremism.

Date: 2021-07-16 04:04 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
Well, yeah, any policy is going to only be as good as its enforcement makes it. We don’t throw away a safety tool because somebody who should have been banned a long time ago is misusing it to excuse genocide. Any rule will need to emphasize that it is a safety tool and not an “automatically win arguments” tool.

EDIT: not that we even have that option, of course. It’s here, presumably to stay, and we need to know how to use it. If we purposefully neuter it in order to justify a handful of edge cases (I think it’s just Velacron? These people tend to weed themselves out anyway) I feel we do more harm than good
Edited Date: 2021-07-16 04:23 am (UTC)

Date: 2021-07-16 07:06 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
To be clear, I am fine with the status quo - the ban function exists, and everyone can use it as they please. It's not my preferred situation, but I'm fine with it.

My concern is expecting the mods to prevent people from "circumventing" these bans. Because as it is, as tools, the bans don't do all that much. You voiced the concern of someone banning another person to have the last word. As we have seen with cyberghostface and cricharddavies, the result is: nothing happens, they keep sniping back and forth like usual, the ban doesn't do shit.

So it would be almost entirely on the mods to design and implement and enforce a policy of "users are allowed to select other users that they don't want to interact with". This is something that should be built into the code of the site. I don't believe it is reasonable to expect a team of human mods to have to babysit and intervene to keep any given pair of people from even interacting. I don't believe the current mod team is even remotely inclined to try such a thing, given that their announcement consists of: "the ban function exists, you can use it, we can't stop you, but try to keep it at a minimum, ok?"

I think it makes more sense to design policy completely independent of the ban function. If two users routinely get into toxic arguments, then ... just sanction them for their toxicity. (ex: this certainly is not the first time cricharddavies has talked to people this way, why was something not done earlier, there has to be a better solution than individual users putting them on a ban list). Trying to build a policy around a half-baked ban function that anyone can use for any reason strikes me as a bad idea.

Date: 2021-07-14 09:14 pm (UTC)
shakalooloo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shakalooloo
Weird how in most other systems I've seen the equivalent function merely hides from one's own view alone the replies of people one has so tagged, with an option to reveal individual posts at one's discretion.

The version that this site uses seems utterly bizarre, but I suppose that this is primarily meant as a blogging site rather than the discussion forum that SD uses it as.

Date: 2021-07-14 11:02 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
I feel like the system you describe is more useful than this one. If I know that seeing a specific person's posts cause my blood pressure to rise, I would rather make it so that I could not see their posts than that I could but they would just need to post around me to comment.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2021-07-15 03:17 am (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
This. Both of your points, especially the second one. Thank you for making them.
(deleted comment)
(deleted comment)

Date: 2021-07-15 04:18 am (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
Thanks for posting this and making everyone aware!

I didn't know about this function of Dreamwidth, so when I was suddenly unable to respond to a user's posts while they continued replying to disagree with mine I thought it was an action by the mod team without notification to me. I was understandably less than pleased until a couple of helpful posters told me what was actually happening.

Date: 2021-07-15 04:35 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: Beast, Marvel Comics (beast)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
As an alternative, if you want to not see comments from a particular person but want to let other people still see them, you can use the following css in your journal:

Go to your journal, then Organize, Customize Journal Style, Custom CSS and add in the following code:



and replace "username" with the user name of the person you don't want to see. Repeat as many times as you like, using the whole code with the new user name each time. They will also not be visible to you in other people's comments, or in your circle.
(deleted comment)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
Remind me why I should choose the high road when my enemy consistently chooses the low one?
(deleted comment)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
I will not censor people. That's what she does, and I'm a better person than that.
(deleted comment)
(deleted comment)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
"Who fights ever hoping for success?"

Also, that last bit? That was a rather blatant lie, right?
(deleted comment)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
No, I'm asking if you really seriously believe that it's not too late for any of that.
werehawk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] werehawk
None of us should be enemies here and that language is inciting. Please stop.

Date: 2021-07-15 07:02 am (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
Ooh, a feud between the poster uncomfortably cozy with Frank Miller's Islamophobia and the poster who openly fantasizes about the death of creators they dislike. What fun.

Date: 2021-07-15 08:54 am (UTC)

Date: 2021-07-15 01:54 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Yeah sorry I don’t think someone should be canceled (as numerous people here have said he shouldn’t be able to get work) for being critical of religion.

And for what it’s worth I don’t share half of Frank Miller’s views on the matter.
Edited Date: 2021-07-15 02:54 pm (UTC)

Date: 2021-07-15 02:02 pm (UTC)
cygnia: (uh-uh)
From: [personal profile] cygnia
...a-yep...

This can only end in tears (for everyone else).

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 06:28 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
I don’t share half of Frank Miller’s views on the matter.

I don't believe you. I expect you're going to say that's a lie, too.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 06:37 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
You believe liking Hannibal Lecter as a character means you want to eat people, so…

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 06:45 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
You believe liking Hannibal Lecter as a character means you want to eat people, so…

And why should I not believe that?

You admire this person. Why should I not believe you want to emulate them? I want to emulate the people I admire. I fail, like I do at everything else, but it's what I want. Why should I not believe that you have the same desires I do?

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 06:51 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
“Why should I not believe that you have the same desires I do?”

Because I don’t have the problems you clearly have in separating fiction and reality. I can enjoy Bryan Cranston’s performance as Walter White and find the character fascinating without wanting to cook meth.

Also I never said I admired Hannibal, so there you go. Lying again.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
Also I never said I admired Hannibal, so there you go. Lying again.

And there you go, making the ad hominem attacks you claim to despise in me. This after posting in this thread after you were asked to stop.

I admire the people I enjoy watching. I don't watch people I don't admire. Why should I not believe you be different?

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 07:27 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
“I admire the people I enjoy watching. I don't watch people I don't admire. Why should I not believe you be different?”

Why do you think everyone is just like you? Because you seem to think that “This is the way I view the world, therefore I’m going to project my views on everyone else.” I don’t know if that’s arrogant or naive.

And god, how boring that mindset is. “I don't watch people I don't admire.” Imagine refusing to watch something like The Godfather or even Shakespeare’s Macbeth because you are only able to watch characters who are nice people.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
Why do you think everyone is just like you?

I start with that expectation because the alternative is terrifying. You (humanity in general) keep proving me wrong.

I do refuse to watch The Godfather, and I have no interest in watching a performance of Macbeth, having read it in high school and despised it then. All these stories about old rich white men who do awful things are simply endless reiterations of "The Aristocrats", as far as I'm concerned.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 08:10 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
“I start with that expectation [that everyone shares my specific views] because the alternative is terrifying.”

Then I suggest you figure out that not everyone thinks the same way you do. The real world doesn’t work that way. I don’t know how else to explain something as basic as that. Your views are beyond irrational and it’s hard to even fathom them at this point.

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 08:21 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
Your views are beyond irrational and it’s hard to even fathom them at this point.

If being rational means being like you (specific), I don't want it.

By all means, keep being delusional or dissembling, whichever one it is (I suspect the latter, but don't really give a crap) about Miller's motivation being 'criticism of religion', which, were it the case, would not have resulted in Classical-era Persians, who share no religion with 21st century Muslims, being portrayed as a horde of monsters and a threat to everything decent in the world.

No matter what happens, no matter whether I convince anyone else -- I know what you really are. And whatever I am does not change that.
Edited Date: 2021-07-15 08:31 pm (UTC)

(frozen)

Date: 2021-07-15 08:32 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
“Being rational” means understanding that enjoying Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs doesn’t mean you have a desire to eat human flesh.

Thinking that those who find Hannibal a fascinating character are aspiring cannibals goes beyond irrationality to outright delusion. It has no basis in reality and even the most paranoid of people haven’t reached the conclusions you do.

Date: 2021-07-15 04:03 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] owlbrigade1
With respects to the banuser and the possibility of it being used on mod accounts, specifically potential future mods who might be on someone's ban list pre-getting promoted, can I suggest, perhaps, that future mods make a specific mod account separate from their normal user one when and if that happens? Keep their normal user activity, which is presumably what they got on the banlist for, separate from modding activity.

Date: 2021-07-15 09:54 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
That's a sensible idea.

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