Scans_Daily

That's what I'm assuming.

From:

aeka

She knows he'll catch him and he does, which allows her to get away. But the point is she intended to kill the dude for killing her friend over things that she stole.

From:

fifthie

Yeah uh... I'm not the most forgiving when it comes to characters pulling this kind of thing, but, well, like she says.

He's Batman.

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zechs80

Do whips do those sort of actions? I don't think they do.

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icon_uk

In a world where batarangs know exactly when to wrap themselves around a suitable load bearing struts, (or indeed when to wrap themselves around targets multiple times, whips are probably straightforward enough.

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jjgalahad

A whip, when used properly, can easily break the sound barrier and slice through denim. A bullwhip, if snapped just so, could feasibly push him over the edge - if he was very, very close to it and/or didn't weigh a great deal.

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"So Selina not only has anonymous violent sex with a man she doesn't even know, but she's also willing to kill now."

Remember, she killed Black Mask in the Pre-FP 'verse.

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aeka

Yes, but she didn't kill him right away like she intended to do here. The first time he "died" she let him fall to his "death" but didn't actively kill him. When she did actively killed him, that was after he had gone after her sister and brother and law, and drew the line at him torturing Slam and threatening to go after Holly and anyone else she was close to. Within the context of that story it was understandable why she made the decision to kill him. Here she's intending to kill him out of rage, much in the same way Helena Bertinelli did when she first started out. This is clearly not the same reason as her killing Black Mask, who kept coming after her loved ones.

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Well, it's definitely true that we had a younger, more impulsive take on Catwoman, but these are similar circumstances to what we're describing with Black Mask--from what we've seen of her past, Lola was Selina's teacher and supporter from early on. She's as important to Selina here as Maggie and Slam were before.

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aeka

My point is Pre-FP Selina was not this eager to kill and abided by the same strict no-kill rule Batman follows. If she's always been this eager to kill anyone who killed or harmed any of her loved ones she would have surely not have made Black Mask the only exception.

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Who's to say that this Selina has other loved ones like Lola?

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aeka

What's your point?

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I'm saying that if Selina was justified in wanting to kill Black Mask because of killing and torturing the people she cares about, then she's justified in wanting to kill Bones for killing someone she cares about.

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aeka

I'm not saying she's not justified in her wanting to kill this guy. What bothers me is that she's being depicted here as someone who's eager to kill (or at the very least has no qualms about killing), and she's never been depicted as such. Even when she made the decision to Black Mask pre-reboot, it wasn't out of an impulse like she's doing here; she did so after she came to the realisation that if he remained alive he would continue to come after and harm her loved ones. Basically she killed Black Mask to keep him from hurting her loved ones. Here she's considering killing Bones in a fit of rage of losing a loved one, and the only thing that stopped her from going forward with the deed was Batman intervening.

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I didn't interpret this as her being eager to kill, but more like pushed to her limits and so enraged that she loses control. I can't fault her for it, frankly.

You're right, this isn't the Selina we know. It's a much younger, more vulnerable version of the crafty cunning woman we love. She just hasn't grown into her yet. Having said that, I would like Winick to put a little more thought in her revenge sequences -- more variety and finesse. She can't be resorting to violence all the time. That would get old. Also, sometimes, the best revenge can be exacted by letting them live.

Despite the violence, what balanced this issue out for me were the pages with Lola. I really loved it. I love how excited she was showing off her first loot and asking Lola to move it. I love the photos of her and Lola goofing around on vacation. It shows me that despite the sucky childhood she must have had, there were still happy times, and that she's not so damaged a character that she isn't capable of enjoying life to the max.

The scene with Batman, while still kind of dry, actually had a point. I thought that was pretty clever of her throwing Bone off the roof and distracting Bats. And even her going back to Lola's apartment to get rid of the evidence. That shows presence of mind and survival instincts kicking in despite the grief. I admire that.

All in all, I enjoyed the issue. I'm really surprised by it because I was expecting something completely different and was ready to drop the book.

From:

aeka

It could just be that my expectations for this issue were already low to begin with and it took a second reading for me to really get the full scope of what was going on here.

I understand that within the context of the story she snapped after losing someone she loves and cares about, but I won't lie, I'm still not sold on Winick's take on Selina, and I think it's too soon to say whether or not she'll go back to being the cunning crafty woman we love. Right now I'm going up to issue #10 before I decide whether or not it's a keeper.

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Lol. You're giving Winick a much longer rope than I. This was my make or break issue. Fortunately, for him, I'm in for the next one.

From:

aeka

I tend to see it more as giving the book a *proper* chance, and believe me when I say it's pretty hard not to jump the gun when it feels like a writer is taking too many liberties with a character. Same with Mr. Terrific. If it wasn't for the fact that both Huntress and Karen Starr are tied to whatever big reveal is in the book, I would have dropped that one too after #2 alone.

From:

jlbarnett

where's it being hinted Huntress is really Helena Wayne? I haven't seen the scans of that.

From:

aeka

On both their blog and the editorial at the end of Huntress #1.

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jlbarnett

THis seems to be a very criminal take on Catwoman. I think, as a thief, Preboot Selina would be more understanding of violence of items, though she wouldn't justify killing, than over things like drugs or criminal territory which she herself wouldn't find valuable.

I mean maybe I'm way off but I think preboot her attitude was a sort of pretty self absorbed "The reason the things I do are okay is because I'm CATWOMAN." ANd of course no one else is. As for people sellling the stuff she steals, well it was okay because it was useful to her.

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you know... i honestly don't hate this... i don't love it, but i don't hate it... like others have said, this character was definately a trigger for Selina. From what i have seen Selina wanting to kill this guy for it (and not just because he killed her friend, but because the way he explained it, he killed her over "things" that were meaningless, the only meaning they had were that he wanted them)

Selina is pissed. Maybe she would have killed him, maybe she wouldn't have... if she really was going to kill him, Hell with what batman says, she could kill him and still get away. but she didn't. she threw him off the building Knowing batman would catch him. I mean i can see where some peopel would be uspet with this... but i don't really see it as out of character for selina. Yes she had a no kill rule like batman, but i have always seen her in degrees, below batman, but above redhood.

From:

aeka

I get that it was a trigger for her, I'm not arguing that it wasn't. As I said she intended to kill him out of rage. What I don't like is that she's being portrayed here as someone who has now qualms about killing, and that doesn't feel in character for Selina.

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how does she have no qualms about killing? because she didn't stop and pause to think about wether or not she should kill the man that killed, from what i have read, a woman who was pretty much a mother or godmother to her?

i'm sorry if i seem dense, i don't get how wanting to kill this guy shows she has no qualms about killing? if anything because of what he did iam surprised selina did NOT just kill him and be done with it.

From:

aeka

Let me put it this way: what kind of character is Winick trying to present to the reader if he has to use the death of an important character in Selina's life as a plot device to put her into a position where she has to consider killing?

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but that has more to say about Winick than it does Selina. what ever the case maybe. About Selina, what i see is that it takes some one who is as close to a mother as she has had dying to make selina consider killing. same as with slam, same as with maggie, same as with Holly. again i don't see this out of character, because she has killed (under these circumstances) before. i mean these are not insignificant people. these are innocent people she loves. with one exception, there has always been something stopping her from actually killing them. something that allows her to stop and think. well she stopped and thought here, and she didn't kill him, even though she could have (i know I would have if i were her).

From:

aeka

again i don't see this out of character, because she has killed (under these circumstances) before

And how often has she killed under these circumstances? Only once, and that was only after she concluded that the only way her loved ones would be safe from Black Mask persistently harming them was by killing him. She didn't consider this option again after that, even when other villains like Film Freak and Angle Man came around and endangered the life of Baby Helena by placing her right smack in the middle of a street to be runned over by a car.

As I've pointed out to someone else on this thread, if Selina has always considered killing under these circumstances before, it would suffice to say she would not have made Black Mask the only exception to her strict no-kill rule, nor would she have any reason to abide by it in the first place. The fact that Winick was this quick to put her in a situation where she considers sending a guy to his death this early in her story says a lot about how he sees this character, which tells me (after three issues so far) that he has a very superficial understanding of the character at best.

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while i don't agree with you 100% i do see where you are coming from. While i don't dislike Winick on this title, i don't think he was the best person to tell THIS story, (ie a reintroduction to catwoman in the DCnU). i would have less of a problem with this story if it was... say issue 30 or more. but i agree, telling this story so early on is a mistake, and some one else should have been writing this....

truth be told, i would be interested to see how Gail Simone would write her.

that said, i am... well not enjoying this run, it has lots of problems.... but i am not hating it. ("not hating this" should not be the way to start off a new series though)

From:

aeka

I don't hate the series either, I'm just not liking the direction Winick is taking with a classic character like Selina. He's basically trying too hard to write an 'edgier Catwoman' without having a strong handle on her character, or really understanding what motivates and drives this character to do what she does. If anything it doesn't feel like the story is even about Selina at all, but rather how he thinks readers want to see Selina. There's a lot of jumping the gun but no actual development to actually lead to any of the events taking place in the book in a way that I--as a reader--can actually believe if that makes sense.

From:

benicio127

The fact that Winick was this quick to put her in a situation where she considers sending a guy to his death this early in her story says a lot about how he sees this character, which tells me (after three issues so far) that he has a very superficial understanding of the character at best.

Agreed. Well-said. For me, Winick is very hit or miss with female characters. Dinah, Wonder Woman, Selina, Ice? No, no, no. Mia, Talia, Grace, Anissa, Onyx? Yes.

From:

blue_bolt

I swore that I would never kill a defenseless individual without a damn good reason, but that was part and parcel of being in the CF. I can't blame Ms. Kyle for what she's doing here. Think about it, she didn't sign up to have her friends shot at, it just happened cause Bones there is a world class dick.

For civilians there's something called the "ordinary person defence" basically, if the average joe/jane would have done the same thing in your position despite your actions being criminal, you're sentence is reduced (and if you are very lucky it's mitigated entirely). Watching someone kill a close friend in front of you would be enough to get most fair judges to reduce your charges manslaughter in the 2nd degree (see: Manslaughter:Provocation: reasonable man defense on Wikipedia).

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It's like the 80 yr old granny who shot two ex-cons in the groin for raping her grand daughter. The police didn't know what to do since she was too old to go to jail plus everyone wanted to vote her in for mayor.

From:

leoboiko

Strange! Punctuation! With! Exclamation! Points! Inside! The! Sentence!

Not… Batman, though… He speaks… in ellipsis… because… MYSTERIOUS

From:

oroburos69

Does the sequence with the baseball bat not look oddly similar to the sequence where the Joker killed Jason? Or is that just me? Or is it that there's only so many ways to draw someone being beaten with a blunt instrument?

If I pretend that this is a new character all together, I really like her in these scans. No random cleavage, wearing flat-soled boots, violently angry and seemingly wildly impulsive in a way that works...there's a lot to like about this portrayal.

I sort of feel like Batman is more out of character for not trying to take her to jail or something. Because seriously, she attacked a guy with a baseball bat and tried to kill him.

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I don't know, this take on Catwoman totally works for me. It certainly doesn't work as well if you go directly from what Brubaker was doing, but as a younger, more impulsive take, it works.

"I sort of feel like Batman is more out of character for not trying to take her to jail or something. Because seriously, she attacked a guy with a baseball bat and tried to kill him."

My guess is that Batman's been after this guy for a while himself--and that's always kind-of been his struggle with Catwoman--she does things that are against the law, but he cares about her in a way that makes it hard for him to put her away.

From:

eyz

This series is really bugging me...
*goes back reading Cooke & Brubaker's Catwoman series*

From:

benicio127

This is just awful. It keeps getting worse and worse. We didn't have to repeatedly see a dead woman. And Selina's characterization has just been... aaaagh the guns, really?!?!

Give this series -- the writing AND art duties to others, please DC. I'm just saying Kathryn Immonen and Amy Reeder would kill it on this. Sex and violence is really not what I'm looking for in a Catwoman book. I'm looking for an awesome complex character. The Brubaker and Cooke Catwoman series was awesome. This is basically garbage.

From:

aeka

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. From what I've read of three issues so far, Winick doesn't get the character. He doesn't get what motivates and drives her, and instead he seems to see her as more of a wildcard: someone who is impulsive, doesn't think about what consequences her actions could bring, and gets violently out of control when triggered. This is NOT the Selina I know and love, which tells me this book isn't so much about Selina but bad canonical fanfiction. XP

I'm looking for an awesome complex character. The Brubaker and Cooke Catwoman series was awesome. This is basically garbage.

THIS THIS THIS!!!!! A MILLION TIMES THIS!!!

From:

fifthie

bad canonical fanfiction.

Winick.

...given the reboot, it's not like you even have to allow that any of this is canon anyway.

From:

benicio127

I actually got the Brubaker and Cooke series through the Comixology iPad app. You can read each panel at a time. I felt like it was a perfect way of being able to take in every little bit of Cooke's amazing art. God, that series is so good.

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