Peter discovers he's the Clone...

[cyberghostface]

This comes from Spectacular Spider-Man #226.

Comments

I really need someone to get me up to speed

[baihu]

In the greater continuity of Spider-Man, does it actually matter which one was the clone or original? Does it matter whether Ben Reilly still exists, and did being the clone or the original actually impact anybody?

I'm just asking cause I had no clue what the whole point of the Clone Saga was when I read it, and in the end, I never followed up as to WHAT was the results and their impact.

I mean, was this retconned or something? I never saw anyone mention this whole thing or Ben Reilly as far as I recall.

Re: I really need someone to get me up to speed

[shewhohashope]

I only ever saw the cartoon version, and I'm confused too.

Re: I really need someone to get me up to speed

[greenmask]

I liked the clone stuff much better in the cartoon. MJ is really made entirely of water? Yeah!

Re: I really need someone to get me up to speed

[thatnickguy]

Ben's doctor friend, Seward Trainer, revealed that he mucked up the results during this process. Apparently, he was working for The Green Goblin all along.

Re: I really need someone to get me up to speed

[cyberghostface]

Long story short, this was retconned. Peter is the original. Ben is the clone. The whole thing was part of a plan masterminded by Norman Osborn to destroy Spider-Man by making him think he was a clone.

As for this impacting people--well, what bothered people was the notion that the Spider-Man they had been following since the late 70s was not the genuine artifact but an "impostor".

Wikipedia has a decent summary of what went down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clone_Saga

Re: I really need someone to get me up to speed

[stig]

Basically it had a similar problem to OMD - the basic underlying message of, "Fuck you and your money, everything you know is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG", and of course as soon as they realised it they back-pedalled themselves into the corner of the boating pond by continually claiming that it all still happened in everything but name.

Which, I suppose, is partly why they decided to revise the Saga - MJ would look pretty stupid to the average reader if she took the above treatment from a long-term boyfriend and then rather than someone who'd sworn to love & honour, cherish and hold, etc., her, and then decided not to just dump his ass.

Re: I really need someone to get me up to speed

[lynxara]

I don't think the new Clone Saga story is meant to actually replace the old one in continuity. I think it's a non-continuity nostalgia-driven project, like X-Men Forever.

Re: I really need someone to get me up to speed

[icon_uk]

The original point was to allow Peter to retire as Spider-Man and for he and MJ to raise their family, and have a "fresh, new", single, Spider-Man with a new outlook on the scene.

The argument has validity only if Ben wants to be Peter Parker again, since he should have prior claim to the identity.

Re: I really need someone to get me up to speed

[octopusgirl.livejournal.com]

Alfred! Icon love~

[sistermagpie]

Peter's face looks like something out of EC comics in a lot of those panels.

[halloweenjack]

Looks like Bill Sienkiewicz on the inks.

[tacobob]

I'm loving the rather generic monologue in the middle there. "SHUSH HARLOT! SCIENCE AND I ARE BUSY!"

And why is Peter smacking Medusa around? Black Bolt is gonna have to have a word with him! :O

[sianmink]

He learned that from RICHAAARRRRDDSSSSS!!

[kingrockwell]

A word? He'd barely get the first letter out before Pete was blasted to oblivion!

[book-of-daniel.livejournal.com]

Mary Jane used to have big "I'm here to accept my country music award" hair. As they say, "The bigger the hair the closer to Jesus..."

Of course, that really didnt work out for her in the end.

[starwolf_oakley]

I recently posted an oddly similar situation from DAREDEVIL #344. A freaking out Daredevil is digging up "Matt Murdock's" grave and Karen Page stops by.

http://pics.livejournal.com/starwolf_oakley/pic/004k7d3g.jpg
http://pics.livejournal.com/starwolf_oakley/pic/004k8xtk.jpg

[halialkers]

So why did this never do to Spider-Man what Henry Pym smacking Janet Van Dyne did to those two? I mean, the other was bad, but this potentially could have killed two people. >.>

[neuhallidae]

The snarky, cynical side says "because Spidey's popular". The attempting to be logical side says "doing something stupid in the heat of a fight is different from a psychological breakdown", but that's not a much better explanation.

[halialkers]

Except that in both cases, the fight and the psychological breakdown there can be excuses to explain away the behavior, and in both cases they are entirely wrong. That this didn't produce controversy is pretty surprising to me.

[neuhallidae]

Which is why I said the 'logical' explanation isn't much better. Personally, I chalk it up to the writing. Jim Shooter got a shitload of mileage out of the hitting incident with Hank and Jan by directly tying it to his fall from grace, whereas Spidey writers tried to gently sweep it under the rug along with all the rest of the Clone Saga elements they didn't like.

Shooter also has some serious issues in his interpersonal writing. See also: Avengers 200.

[lynxara]

It did. At the time readers absolutely lost their shit over it. It just happened mainly offline so it's not as well documented as the last decade's worth of comics that made fans totally lose their shit.

[halialkers]

Ah.

Well, that makes sense. I feel a little better about Spider-Fans now (how Box_in_the_box would have reacted to this had the Internet existed then as it does now would have been epic).

Re: I really need someone to get me up to speed

[autolychus2]

I don't remember ever having a conversation with him about the Clone Saga, but I imagine he would've broken the Internet.

[cyberghostface]

A number of reasons, probably.

First off, Marvel probably wants to forget that Peter smacked his wife around--given that's he's their most profitable and allegedly family-friendly figure, they probably don't want the baggage that he's a wifebeater (no problems with him having drunk sex, break-into-hotel-room-and-don't-look-at-my-face-sex and being an accomplice to rape, though...). Hank Pym doesn't carry the same weight.

That, and for a long time, Marvel didn't want to reference anything from the Clone Saga. It was considered pretty big a couple of years ago that Mark Millar made some offhand comments about Ben Reilly. And it's only now that they've returned to Ben and Kaine with the "Who was Ben Reilly" storyline. So any references to Peter hitting his wife would have to include "because he just found out he was a clone but that was all due to Norman Osborn's machinations and..." and Marvel's not going to do that.

[halialkers]

Still, though, Hank Pym is one of Marvel's oldest characters. I suppose it's my lack of appreciation for the power of the almighty dollar here, but it's just jarring to see that.

Well, it could hardly be worse and might actually justify OMD to an extent from MJ's side of things (why would I want to stay married to somebody who hit me with super strength) but Quesada wouldn't know sense if it walked right up behind him and shouted "Hier ist ich!"

[lamashtar]

The situations were not identical.

They may've both been in the middle of nervous breakdowns but Pym caught his wife spying on his plan to trick the Avengers and was all, "Stupid bitch! Always keeping me down!" kind of. He isn't sorry for a good while.

Parker was in a pitched battle with another superpowered guy and afterward IMMEDIATELY reacts with horror and runs away in shame.

[lynxara]

Marvel's referencing Clone Saga again because they've discovered that the young male (13-17) readers they want to hook into reading modern comics tend to be absolutely fascinated by Clone Saga stuff. I've heard a fair bit of anecdotal evidence in this regard, retailers talking about teens coming in who only want Clone Saga back issues or only want the Clone Saga arc from Ultimate Spider-Man.

[newnumber6]

Really? That seems a little odd.

Maybe even more than a little.

Does it all just come down to "Clones are cool"? Cause if so, I'm pitching "Dinosaur Spider-Man" for the preteen set. And Spider-Ninja.

[lynxara]

The thoughtful analysis of this trend I've seen is that teens, who are still discovering their identities, sympathize deeply with the identity confusion that both Peter and Ben go through in the course of the story. The demonstrations of rage and sorrow that are off-putting to an older reader in Peter are cathartic for a teenage boy.

The less-thoughtful analysis I've read is that in the 90's, comics were written mainly to appeal to this group. So the Clone Saga is loaded with all the stupid things a teenage boy is inclined to like: Venom, Carnage, superkewl villians like Kaine, scheming authority figures like The Jackal and Norman Osborn, and absolute loads of angst and escalating power levels.

[greenmask]

And, don't forget, everyone talks about the clone saga as a shit pit that we must never return too. What do teens so often want? To be edgy, and to know all about the scandals. Then they will be able to join in the "lol, clone saga was sooo baaad maaaan" stuff, and feel they belong.

I know I've looked up what happened in the Clone Saga a bunch of times, and thought "well that doesn't sound too bad, does it?" because I wasn't there and because ridiculously convoluted continuities are funny.

[lynxara]

Well, it's worth noting that teen interest in the Clone Saga stuff doesn't seem to be ironic. They're actually spending money on it and seem to like it in a genuine sense. Perhaps they want to like it to piss off their comics-reading parents, who knows?

I was around for the Clone Saga to be published in real time. I thought it was pretty fucking stupid, but at the time it wasn't even the dumbest thing on the shelves. Not even close.

Recently I decided to read all of the original Clone Saga comics, which is about 200 issues, after going through Life of Reilly and getting curious. The Clone Saga is not without certain redeeming qualities, but it was a spectacular failure of the corporate editorial system.

[greenmask]

Well, money spent ironically is still money spent.

[lynxara]

I've met very few teens who want to spend money even on things they really want, let alone on irony. Teens are one of those demographics where their disposable time really outstrips whatever disposable income they have.

[greenmask]

I'm just going from my own experiences.. I was totally willing to buy [I wouldn't have said ironically, but I would have said because it is funny], and I was also easily swayed by what I thought was "cool" to know about or be into.. whatever I thought that cool meant. Nerd-hip and down with the hypothetical boys, and feeling like I was so over being offended by the T&A because there was just no point complaining, I guess?

So what I'm saying is I read a lot of Witchblade, which had some really x-treme factors to its storytelling and I didn't so much enjoy IT as a whole (I liked some bits) as enjoy what I thought I was being by reading it. Which, yes, I was willing to pay for.

Since you say (or was it someone else?) that kids are buying the Clone Saga like candy there MUST be a reason or a lot of different reasons for it!

[lynxara]

Yeah, I was that kind of kid too-- I loved Mystery Science Theater 3000. I was very atypical, though. I suspect on some level most folk who end up s_d posters are in fact atypical fans, so it'll be hard to extrapolate from our buying habits to majority habits.

My source on "teen boys love Clone Saga" stuff is retailer anecdotes, as I've said before. That and the fact that Marvel's acknowledging Clone Saga stuff for the first time in fifteen years makes me think something is up-- Marvel must have some reason to think that era of comics now has a commercial value it didn't have previously.

[greenmask]

Ironic enjoyment and "retro" referencing is huge, though, especially in.. youth culture. Hate that phrase. But yeah, partially evidenced by the 80s-remake blockbuster movies made from kids shows, enforced, lightly derisive nostalgia is big business. Hence everyone and their cousin wearing "vintage" Ramones shirts and fake University tees and shirts printed with the covers of comics the wearer doesnt even know is real. I shake my fist! It's cheating if you don't ACTUALLY resonate with your merchandise!

..Yeah. Git off my lawn youngins-the-same-age-as-me.


I am kind of bummed I didn't find MST til I was twenty or so! Lucky you for having that outlet. You're probably right, I guess, we likely are unusual here. I forget to remember that.

[felinephoenix]

I'm hesitant to speak as part of the "younger generation" since at 22 I'm probably not part of it any more, but... personally, I felt drawn to "retro" stuff because I couldn't relate to the stuff for teens my age. 90s media seemed to 'get me' in a way early-00s stuff didn't.

Just saying.

[lamashtar]

Your analysis is flawed! Kaine IS superkewl!

[lynxara]

NO IT CANNOT BE

[lamashtar]

There already is about two or three Spider-ninjas.

[blake_reitz]

I like that science montage page. It's like the script just called for "PETER and BEN are DOING SCIENCE. Draw some SCIENCE THINGS." Pete's all like "I'll mix the science chemicals!" and Ben's all "I'll read this science print out and look through the science scope!." Good times.

[felinephoenix]

Me too.

...It goes without saying that I'd read the tell out of a "together, they fight crime and do SCIENCE!" book, doesn't it.

[felinephoenix]

Ugh. I mean read the hell out of. I swear I can post typo-free comments. I swear.

[sandoz_iscariot]

Okay, I need to write up more Spider-Marriage Week posts to wash this from my brain.