Secret Six #16

[gargoylekitty]

With a two more for the 'Many Looks of Black Alice' and, as noted on Twitter...


First up, Black Alice stops Catman and Deadshot from ditching her.

Meh. Not too creative, just like your typical female version of the character with a lower/more angular dip in the front of the outfit.
Anyhow, she obviously succeeds so they head to a strip club, another attempt to ditch her.

Obviously, again, that fails.


With Scandal & co. there, they try to address the issue of 'Black Alice is definitely not joining them'(reason for her wanting to in the issue, go read!)

And they continue on the path of failing to get rid of her.

Not the biggest fan of Black Alice but it was an alright issue, only wish Scott had been on the art for it. :\

Comments

[gailsimone]

Nicola's NOT off the book, she's doing WW:BN and a short special cool thing and then she's back with us.

And Jesus CHRIST I wish people would put the term "Mary Sue" in the grave where it belongs.

[batman]

And Jesus CHRIST I wish people would put the term "Mary Sue" in the grave where it belongs.

Thank you. I hate that term so very much, especially when applied to, of all people, Lori "I have genuine personality flaws that cause me to do dumb and reckless things all the time" Zechlin.

[toasty_fresh]

I think the "mary sue" tag has more to do with her powers than her personality in this case . . .

[scottyquick]

But it's such a meaningless term now. Is it a character shoved into the plot? Is it the writer's favorite? Is it a self-insert? Is it a character with loads of power?

[toasty_fresh]

Not arguing that-- just saying defending her personality in this case isn't proving anything (other than that there's about 97 different definitions of mary sue and no one knows which one anyone else is talking about, which is pretty much what you're saying, lol)

[batman]

Her powers are to swipe magic powers, yes. However, she doesn't really get to choose whose she swipes, unless she's in line of sight with them. She's able to swipe Cheetah and Felix Faust's because they're standing right in front of her. The other times, she was just randomly grabbing anyone's magic at random. She doesn't get to choose who it is, so sometimes she might have Zatanna, and other times she's grabbing a random meta from Metropolis whose sole magical ability is to avoid stubbing their toe in the dark.

It's also a very finite borrowing. She gets them taken from her pretty quickly and abruptly, which is not exactly a help when in a fight.

Finally, she doesn't really get how other peoples' powers work. Felix Faust comments that her use of the swiped powers are wasteful and ... pretty terrible actually. Someone with more skill and experience would trump her in a magical fight because they actually know how to use their powers effectively. She's just swinging a magical sledgehammer around.

[toasty_fresh]

I'm not saying she is a Mary-Sue because of her powers, just that the issue people seem to have is with her powers, so defending her personality as you did in your comment wasn't really relevant.

[batman]

Eh, in the parts of fandom I live in, Mary Sue is used for "person with personality traits I don't like", so I made that assumption. My bad.

(This rather proves scottyquick's point though)

[gargoylekitty]

Figured as much. Any suggestion of when she'll be back?

[aulayan]

No, Gail. Mary Sue is an apt term for *every* character created since the turn of the millennium.

I mean, at least, someone seems to use it for every character that exists for more than one arc....

[majingojira]

Cast the net Wider, I dare ya.

[kamino_neko]

Cosigned.

While we're at it, can we stop calling any newish character whose power-set overlaps an existing character's (such as 'magic') 'useless'?

[raygunjill]

Really, people challenge the fact you've created another super powerful white teenager like the dozens already overrunning the DCU and all you can do it complain about people aptly calling Mary Sue on a lj clone community? That's really embarrassing and I expected more class from you.

[schmevil]

Except she hasn't been challenged over creating "another super powerful white teenager like the dozens already overrunning the DCU." She's been accused of writing a Mary Sue.

Her response was to complain about the term. And hey, she's complained about the term being applied to other people's characters as well. I would hardly categorize her response as embarrassing.

[raygunjill]

A Mary Sue is an overpowered character with an angsty past that comes in and jobs the preexisting characters and gets to stick around despite not being qualified. Alice in this issue is a Mary Sue.

[zegim]

But a Mary Sue is also a self-insert character that we are supposed to love. A very important characteristic that a lot of people forget when use Mary Sue as shorthand for "character I don't like"

[galateus]

No, that isn't what a Mary Sue is. That's just the most common kind in fanfic, and those traits you mentioned don't *automatically* make a character a Sue.

Alice'd have to be written way worse and be almost nothing but clichés to be a Mary Sue.

[gailsimone]

But there's nothing 'apt' about it. That's not what a Mary Sue is, it's just one of those meaningless phrases people use for no good reason. The other posters are right, EVERY new character gets called a Mary Sue at some point and it's so egregiously goofy. I always say it's okay to be condescending and it's okay to be wrong, but but one should never be both if it's all avoidable.

Yes, she's a super-powerful character, but the effect has never been to make people fall at her feet with how cool it is that she can beat up Superman, the point has always been, "Geez, having a disturbed young girl with this kind of power seems like a train wreck waiting to happen."

An important difference.

Could not care less that someone doesn't like her character, am not the least bit offended, that's all fair game.

But I hate that idiotic "Mary Sue" term, especially when it's applied completely incorrectly.

Are pet peeves not allowed at Scans_Daily anymore?

I'm not the least bit mad about the thread, I always enjoy SD. But I think I have the right to loathe hearing that term misapplied for the millionth time, as well, that's all.

[raygunjill]

Angsty and misunderstood is right in the definition of Mary Sue, so I believe the term still applies. But the argument about terminology ignores the biggest problem with Black Alice. DC has hundreds of underused characters of color and instead we just get new white characters whining about their lives. Cassandra Cain got pushed aside, Jaime Reyes and Renee Montoya got reduced to second features, Vixen is getting sidelined again from the Justice League, etc. Then in Secret Six we have a Hispanic woman losing her authority and having a white man take over to fix things. Black Alice is symptomatic of the larger problem and some of us have had enough of it.

[scottyquick]

Raygunjill, I see your concern, but I think Simone is one of the few creators out there who actively pushes and supports and creates awesome characters of color. Frex, she invented:

- Scandal Savage, leader of Secret Six
- Ryan Choi, star of the All-New Atom
- Thomasina Lindo, star of Welcome to Tranquility

She also made pitches for Cass Cain OYL, and had Vixen star in a BOP story arc. I think the problem is, if Simone had loaded up the only villainous team in the DCU with COC, that would have had a ton of unfortunate implications. I think it's pretty safe to say that Scandal's not really leaving the team anyway, she's one of the core four.

[gailsimone]

???

[gailsimone]

I don't even know where to start with this.

First, I'm sorry, but every new character is not going to fit a particular agenda, even one I agree with. I create a ton of characters of color and happily insert them at every available opportunity. But I certainly think creating no Caucasian characters is a poor solution to the problem. It is, in fact, no solution at all.

But beyond that, what in the world do Cass and Jaime and Renee have to do with anything? Alice isn't taking their place, far from it, they HAVE slots to appear in, Alice does not, besides which, none of those characters fit in S6 even slightly, for reasons that are absolutely color-blind. How in the world is a character who may or may not be sticking around in a team book affecting characters whose own books failed, but were STILL given a second chance as back-up strips? Are you really trying to think there's something sinister there?

But perhaps most oddly, you're angry for something that makes no sense at all. Bane isn't white. Bane is a Latin male, 100%, and has been since his first appearance, something we've alluded to in Secret Six more than once. And Scandal's most certainly not going to accept Bane's orders, either. It's Act One of that arc.

I hate to keep this kind of ping pong going. My problem with the phrase is that it's a goofy and meaningless and misused term, not that you posted it in particular or with your problems with the issue. That's all perfectly fair. I just hate that term since it's one of those things that simply don't make any sense to use any more.

[benicio127]

And Jesus CHRIST I wish people would put the term "Mary Sue" in the grave where it belongs.

So. Much. Motto. It's a horrible term to both writers and characters.

[gailsimone]

I can't remember the last time I heard it used correctly, to be honest.

[galateus]

Yeah, it's way overused. It should be reserved for stuff like the famous Harry Potter fanfic My Immortal or John Ringo's professionally-published "wanker piece" The Paladin of Shadows. And maybe The Cross-Time Engineer.