Brainiac 5 remembers pre-Crisis DCU.

[theanswer]

In the previous Legion entry I posted I got into a debate with another poster over whether or not Brainiac 5 remembers the pre-Crisis DCU. This revelation occurred in a two page exchange of dialogue that clears up the origin of Bart Allen, XS, and the other Legions.

After hearing her true origin, XS asks the adult Brainiac why he is the only one who can remember these events. The second Brainy theorizes that the capacity of an adult Brainiac 5's brain may be enough to resist changes in reality, thus the original Brainiac 5 is the same person from pre-Crisis continuity only with a new body.

All of his current plans as of late were drawn up from his calculations of future events before the first Crisis occurred.

Also, it is explained that both Legion reboots existed before the Crisis and all current continuity crossovers were trippy time traveling events that took them to a future that only existed in the past.


 

Suggested Tags:
char: brainiac 5/querl dox
char: flash/barry allen
char: impulse/kid flash/bart allen
char: professor zoom/eobard thawne
char: star boy/starman/thom kallor
creator: geoff johns
creator: george perez
event: final crisis
group: legion of super-heroes
publisher: dc comics
title: legion of 3 worlds

Comments

[thanekos]

well, that gives a bit more meaning to the capacity of a 12th level intellect

other than specifying B5's CR, of course (plus whatever modifier being a coluan'd get him)

[khaosworks]

The thing is, that Brainy's memories here are almost all post-Crisis on Infinite Earths or post-Infinite Crisis.

It's debatable whether the Tornado Twins being Barry's kids is a post-Crisis development - in their original appearance, they were just "descendants" of Barry's, not his actual children. This element was only introduced after it was established that Barry lived for a time in the 30th Century between his trial for the murder of Professor Zoom and Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Everything that Brainy recounts here from "after Barry Allen disappeared" is a New Earth/Multiverse history, post-Infinite Crisis. Prior to Zero Hour, the Tornado Twins were targeted by the Dominion-controlled Earthgov (in Legion v4, which Geoff Johns seems to be ignoring entirely). Post-Zero Hour, it's retconned to being due to President Thawne. Only in Legion of Three Worlds is it now involving Zoom himself, Earth-247 and the Legions from three Earths.

So Brainy may or may not remember pre-Crisis, but what he's recounting her is not really pre-Crisis continuity.

[theanswer]

No, these are definitely pre-Crisis memories. The explanation about Supergirl in the last couple of panels shows as much. Earth-Prime, New Earth, Earth-247, all of these Earths never co-existed together after the Crisis except for their brief recreation in Infinite Crisis, which they were then almost immediately after essentially destroyed again. Even then the only Legions we know for sure existed during that brief moment were the two reboots.

Brainiac's explanation that one can return to the multiverse via time travel means that first meeting took place before the first Crisis when all three Earths co-existed long enough for them to work together.

[arbre_rieur]

If I'm reading this correctly, and I'm not sure I am, it's not the Pre-Crisis continuity that Brainiac is referring to remembering. It's the original meeting of the three Legions.

[theanswer]

The last couple of panels shows that meeting took place before the Crisis as they explain that Supergirl traveled back in time to the original multiverse when she met the third Legion.

[khaosworks]

I don't think you can definitively say that these must be pre-Crisis memories - they could very well be memories from the time these worlds were briefly created during Infinite Crisis. Those worlds may have been destroyed almost immediately from our POV, but they were also created with whole histories intact for that brief period.

What we can definitely say is that these are not v4 or Zero Hour memories.

[kamino_neko]

In addition to what everyone else is saying - the 'only Brainiac 5 remembers' refers to exactly one, very specific, incident - the meeting of the 3 Legions, and Jenni and Bart changing universes.

[theanswer]

He also remembers his relationship with Supergirl even though in current continuity it has not happened yet.

[deleonjh]

Doesn't one of the threeboot Legionnaires look up Supergirl's future career after she returned to her normal time? Despite the fact that in their universe angry Superboy is the only superhero?

[lieut_kettch]

But records of Kara's history DO exist on Earth-Prime, in the form of comic books. I suspect his "research" took the form of a quick trip to Tinya's stack of longboxes.

[recognitions.livejournal.com]

I dunno, dude. Kind of looks like everyone else's consensus is the same as mine. I really think you're reading way too much into this.

[theanswer]

A consensus claiming 2 + 2 = 9 does not make it so.

[pyrotwilight]

Yeah I really do think you're reading too much into it and honestly the explanations still don't really make sense, regardless this was just Johns trying to fix the Legion, if only a bit.

[theanswer]

Everything I said is right in those pages.

[jlbarnett]

you know, I'm pretty sure it can't be talking pre-Crisis. It says the three worlds thing happened after the Flash disappeared. The only time he disappeared after moving to the future was when Crisis happened and he died during.

[pyrotwilight]

Yeah not to mention the entire point of the whole B5 and Supergirl meet up during War on New Krypton seemed to be there to explain to us that B5 knows Kara will die but it's wholly unrelated to the Crisis. I mean if he remembered the original/Pre-Crisis he'd mention (as narrative of course) her at least once during his whole meetup with NuKara.

[tahngarth.livejournal.com]

1. Any story published now taking place in "pre-Crisis" times acknowledge things that were established post-Crisis, and are thus not "true" pre-Crisis stories. It may mimic a pre-Crisis story very well, but isn't the real deal. For example the story during Voldemort's run on Supergirl where she meets the "pre-Crisis" Kara. The current "original" Legion are -close- to the Pre-Crisis Legion, but they are not the pre-Crisis Legion.

2. Memories of the Crisis have always been inconsistently used in-universe.

3. There's no reason to believe that Brainiac is talking about shifting paradigms when there is a Multiverse in existance right now. And the visual aide illustration shows the nu-Kara, not any of the silver/bronze age Kara costumes.

But the whole argument is honestly largely moot.

But really, the biggest reason that this doesn't matter anymore is that the pre/post-Crisis distinction was something DC instituted so they would never have to speak of their pre-Crisis comics again. Back in the day, it was universally believed that that kind of reference to a large, complex event which was created to clear away an old and unwanted paradigm was highly counterproductive to the future of DC comics.

Actually, in stories following the Crisis, the words "pre-Crisis" was only used on a cover -once-, and that was for the last Phantom Zone story from the last issue of DC Comics Presents. Discussions on pre/post-Crisis were things fans did, because did not, and did not -want- to discuss them in the comics themselves.

It was a new, shiny DC universe, and references to an old "multiverse" had no place there, even if it had taken with it beloved characters like Supergirl and Earth-2 Superman.

Nowadays?

DC is reveling in continuity immensely. The current crop of writers spew out references to old stories constantly, tieing in with comics printed decades ago with gleeful abandon. It's a much more fanboyish approach, which assumes that the people reading have the mindset to figure these things out without developing a massive headache and dropping the book. Stories talk about continuity shifts, utilize retcons all the time and even reference them extensively in-story.

But.yeah, I doubt Johns meant that this version of B-5 remembers the original chain of events, and it's not like it matters if he did.

[aeolos_sakya]

I also thought when I read this pages the first time that Brainiac 5 actually remembered the Pre Crisis things, and when the Supergirl cover showed up, I thought it would be confirmed there then: Brainy actually loved the Pre Crisis Supergirl, therefore, remembering having lived everything from the Pre Crisis universe, and it turned out that he didn't. In his time line, his younger self meet New Earth's Kara, fell in love with her, and at some point, she died. Since he met Post Crisis Kara when he was younger, that means he does not remember Pre-Crisis history.
That's how I see it, but I could be wrong. Time Travel is already a headache, so... let's better not think too much about it :D

[shadowpsykie]

what ever happened to XS and the other Legions?

[theanswer]

The second Legion changed their name to the Wanderers and journeyed into the multiverse to find a home because their Earth doesn't exist in the new multiverse. The third Legion was sent to the reconstructed Earth-Prime.

XS stayed with the original Legion to learn more about her true home and Gates decided to stay with her.

[kusonaga]

I have no idea what just happened.

[dreamreaver]

I like Dawn's outfit.

[minervasolo.livejournal.com]

Does Barry Allen remember having kids? Because you think that would come up at some point in the new Flash series, especially with Bart present. And what the hell does Bart remember? Having been shown to cross timelines and remember things from no-longer-existing timelines in his early appearances, does he remember his history as explained in Impulse, with President Thawne and XS aging at a normal rate, or as explained here?

I honestly didn't think they could make the Flash family history more complicated, but they have.

[dreamreaver]

Barry was dead absorbed by the Speed Force by the time the twins were born, yes? Since he mentioned them not-really-indirectly during the whole "you were there for Bart when I wasn't" speech he made to Max in Rebirth #4, it's likely Iris or one of the other speedsters told him about them.

But judging by how mercurial the Force is... some depictions show the speedsters within at "full consciousness/guardian angel mode", so to speak, rather than the whole "one with the universe" depiction that's been popular recently...he obviously knew about Bart, at least, if his comments in Impulse #82 are anything to go by... *brain melts into mush*

Yeah, I should just stop confusing myself any further right about now.

IIRC Johns said we were going to see Don and Dawn in the new Flash series eventually, so... he might actually get to talk with them!

[cleome45]

Is it wrong that I don't give a crap about continuity and I just want the creators to STFU about it and tell me a damn story?

Also, is it wrong that while I like Brainy, I still think he sucks way too much air out of the freakin' room in what's supposed to be a team book?

[icon_uk]

No, I'm with you there. The fact they sort-of-want the pre-crisis Legion back (16 years after it was removed from continuity) is another bit of DC bacsliding I could have done without. The concept of youthful optimism is sunk again.

But then, I thought that the Zero Hour Legion was one of the best, and most overdue, franchise reboots they did.

[galateus]

What? What? What?!

Mod Note

[angelophile]

Please edit your post to include the source for this scan, IE: Title and issue number. This is now a requirement under the posting rules.

[aaron_bourque]

When you need to stop an asteroid racing toward Earth, you get Superman.

When you need to find out who murdered someone amongst a dozen suspects, you get Batman.

When you need to stop a war, you get Wonder Woman.

When you need someone to go motherfucking fast, you get a Flash.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; with apologies to Gail Simone.