ILLUMINATI: Personal responsibility

[starwolf_oakley]

Oracle once wondered if the Bat-family was culpable for the Joker's crimes since they never did anything permanent to stop him. Here's a few pages from the NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI special where a similar discussion about culpability is discussed.





First, a page where the Black Panther shows how smart he is.



T'Challa's smart, but... The problem with the general public of the Marvel Universe is that they are idiots. Some of the smarter idiots are worried superheroes might subjugate those they protect. This isn't Tony's intention here. He just wants to subjugate other superheroes. Which he eventually does. Idiot.

The full two-page spread of Hill and Stark's conversation.



Spider-Man has a simple reason for not killing Osborn: Neither Aunt May nor Uncle Ben would like it. And Spider-Man is now the *only* Marvel Superhero who thinks killing people is wrong.

Comments

[warpedhand]

Eh, it's pretty clear in story at least that they were right about the Hulk.

[shanejayell]

Dwah?

In canon the Hulk has... I don't want to say NEVER but close... very rarely if ever hurt a innocent person. The only writer who seems to write him as if he HAS id, of course, Bendis. *shrug*

[starwolf_oakley]

Yeah, I was originally going to post a few more pages, and mention how a lot of fans and Marvel writers disliked the "Hulk kills/hurts innocent people" idea so strenuously, they made it a major plot point in WORLD WAR HULK.

[shanejayell]

Yeah, the Amadeus Cho plotline was pretty much focused on that. *nods*

[warpedhand]

I just want to say, Hulk never hurting anybody seems... unlikely at best.

Now, Hulk didn't attack Earth because they shot him into space. Hulk attacked Earth because of the explosion that killed his people, and more specifically his wife. Before that, he didn't give a toss about Earth anymore. Only after Caiera's death does Hulk want to smash puny humans. Which wasn't the Illuminati's fault. And if he had thought for three seconds he would've realized that if the Illuminati had wanted him dead, he would be dead. Also, they don't build shit that explodes when they don't want it to. Also that the Red Tyrant was kind of a bastard. Now, you may say "but Hulk is dumb". This is Planet Hulk Hulk, who is not stupid.

So basically they shot him into space because they were afraid he would destroy New York just like he did Las Vegas. The first thing he does when he comes back? Destroys New York for very little legitimate reason.

[warpedhand]

It's not the fact that he hurt people, by the way. It's that he destroyed a huge section of a major metropolitan area. Whether he directly hurt people or not is almost beside the point.

[shanejayell]

When did he destroy Las Vegas, and under what circumstances? I don't have a big Hulk collection, I lost most of my issues in a move a while back.

About the no-killing thing: before Bendis wrote the special there, the only reference I recall where the hulk killed ANYONE was when his mind had been tampered with. Other than that, no. (Which IS unrealistic, I'll concede. But that's how he was written.)

[warpedhand]

It was right before Planet Hulk, and the direct impetus for him being shot into space. (Justification being essentially "What if he decides to do that somewhere else?" Then they shoot him at a planet uninhabited by intelligent life, Hulk knocks the rocket of course, and it goes on from there)

[shadur]

Which is another big point in the "Illuminati are STUPID" category. They knew the Hulk, they know exactly what he does when he gets angry, and they made him listen to that droning "we betrayed you and you're on the way out of the solar system for our own good. we're kind of sorry about this but it's better for all concerned, especially everyone who isn't you but we know what's best because we're smart..." message and they didn't take into account what might happen when he starts smashing against the walls?

[arilou_skiff]

To be fair, the What-if showed that if the rocket hadn't been blown off-course it'd have ended up pretty nicely for both Hulk and Banner.

[mcity.livejournal.com]

Details?

[arilou_skiff]

Hulk gets to uninhabited planet. He and Banner switch forms, they eventually come to a sort of peace and Hulk frolicks among the animals.

[icon_uk]

Actually, if they had access to the Infinity Gems, why did they need a ship? Either have the holder of the Space Gem wish him to the planet directly, or the Reality Gem "simply" change Bruce Banner so he can never become the Hulk and so on and so on...

[darkblade]

Because they decided that the power is too dangerous to use.

[starwolf_oakley]

Also, if they hadn't left that "Sorry about this, Bruce" message, the general public probably wouldn't have learned about the Illuminati in the first place.

How did the general public/other heroes react to the Illuminati? I know there are a few dry comments about it in the Infinity Gems story in AVENGERS, but I don't know the details.

[screamsheet.wordpress.com]

The Hulk had been driven nuts by some mega-dose of radiation and went on a rampage through Las Vegas. In the actual issue referenced, he wasn't shown to kill anyone. He eventually came to his senses and left on good terms with the Thing, who had tried to stop him.

The idea that people died in that issue is essentially a retcon by Bendis here. Said retcon was later retconned by Dan Slott, who hates the idea of the Hulk killing someone. Later on during World War Hulk, it was established that when the Hulk is not mind controlled/insane, he's got Bruce Banner inside running the numbers and making sure that even in his biggest rages he doesn't kill people in his rampages.

On another note, Civil War had more confirmed deaths in their final battle than the retcon here, which added another level to the hypocrisy of the Illuminati and left me really hating all of these characters for a long time.

[arilou_skiff]

Well, there is a point where property damage starts to become equivalent to loss of life. (Economists actually have a way of calculating it)

Basically, that money spent rebuilding stuff the Hulk tears down could have been spent on other things, stuff that would somewhere down the line save lives.

[thelazyreader]

That's very, very, very indirect and going down a slippery slope. By that measure, there are a LOT of things in the real world as well as in comics that could be held responsible for causing indirect death by taking up resources.

Space, defence and research spending, government salaries and perks, monetary allocations to superheroes, the list would go on and on.

[arilou_skiff]

No, it's basically "at what point does property damage cross the line into killing people"? Pratchett had a similar point (via Golem) in Going Postal

People need money to live, and destroying their stuff means they lose money.

[vitruvian23]

At the point that somebody actually and verifiably dies because of the stuff being destroyed, and not sooner.

If, say, the Hulk destroys the water mains and sewage lines, and as a result a number of people die of thirst and/or cholera, dysentery, etc. over the next few weeks while repairs are being made, then yeah, I suppose he's partially responsible for those deaths (although FEMA, evidently dropping the ball again, would share responsibility).

But if he just destroys a few casinos, and a few rich people lose their assets and have to eat government cheese for a while or something, and some people need to look outside Vegas for jobs, and maybe somebody doesn't have money for an operation down the line.... it's much more indirect, and not really the same thing all as directly leaving dead bodies in one's wake.

[fifthie]

No, it's basically "at what point does property damage cross the line into killing people"? Pratchett had a similar point (via Golem) in Going Postal

It was a dreadful point in going postal, made by a golem with a poor grasp of both economics and human nature.

[amaniwolf]

Agreed, it's been brought up by more the one writer, the Hulk has control to a great degree how much damage he can and will do, almost unconsciously. This is just a heavy handed attempt by Bendis to make the Hulk into a monster that must be stopped, and sticking hero's with guilt for not killing him.

[roguefankc]

Eh, it's pretty clear in story at least that they were right about the Hulk.

But...what's your take on General Ross aka Rulk? She-Hulk? The Thing?

How about some of the super-villains like the Kingpin? Dr. Doom? Norman Osborne? Iron Man and Reed Richards for Clor, the SHRA, and how they betrayed their friends?

That's why Hill's reasoning sticks in my craw so much. Evil done in the service of good is still evil.