How much do you think it would cost to get that shirt?

[ablackraptor]

With AvX thankfully being over, its apparent that everyone has one of three reactions. Either, you A) Take the story at face value, condemn Cyclops, and support the Avengers. You B) Note the plot holes and problems in the story, and believe Cyclops is in the right (or at least not as villainous as he's made out to be). B.5) Note the plot holes, dislike the problems, but don't side with the X-Men due to their own questionable actions. Or C) You do what the majority of comic book fans are and just read the material without going on the internet to talk about it. Apparently, most here, most Tropers, and the guys at ComicsAlliance, are in the B column.



From this page: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/10/04/comicsalliance-vs-avx-round-twelve-avengers-x-men/



Yes, my new (and first) icon is that image in red. I was thinking of turning it into a shirt, before I found this.

I really want this shirt, and I figured somebody here might agree.

Now, to make it official.

Comments

[icon_uk]

I love this quote

Certainly Stark has come to accept the existence of mysticism, though as I've noted before, this is a thing that definitely exists in his universe and that he has had extensive exposure to, so he's basically a man coming to terms with the existence of sandwiches.

[zabilac]

Ouch, that shirt almost makes it painful to be a C.

This seems relevant

[freezer]

[theflames]

I loved that line when I read it too.

[q99]

Likewise! It's really great.

[ablackraptor]

That is a pretty great comparison.

[salinea]

I think I'm a D. I think the story had serious problem, thought nobody was right in it, and whined about it extensively on the internet.

[cypherfdp]

I hear that.

Though, I did cross more than a bit over to the Avenger side after the X-Men become a Super Hitler quintet.

[icon_uk]

Oh, and just when I thought they couldn't rip off the Nightwing costume any more (and not in the sexyfun way I'D want to rip off the Nightwing costume, we get this?

[ablackraptor]

There's only one explanation that makes any sense at all. Cyclops is a closeted Nightwing fan. He used to go to cons and everything dressed in the classic 'disco' suit...

...That, would actually make a pretty cool crack fic.

[azure_flame_god003]

The most amazing thing this event did was it made me care more about Cyclops than I thought possible.

[amaresu]

Ditto. I never cared about Cyclops at all before this. Now I do and it's weird.

[lorriek]

I ended up falling solidly in the "B" category after starting out more or less impartial. I'm honestly surprised by how strongly I ended up feeling about it.

[ablackraptor]

Same here. I'd given up hope on the X-Men and were moving onto building my Batman stuff up thanks to Schism, then I heard about this and, for the first bit, didn't care much of it. Both sides looked too hostile and idiotic. Then when the Avengers continued to get more hypocritical and Cyke's character was utterly assassinated, I became a full fledged B.

[md84]

I'm kind of a mix between A and B. I still don't think Cyclops did the right thing, but he's a tragic hero and not a straight up villain. The Avengers had their hearts in the right place, but they borked it up by being way too abrasive. Overall, this entire story was flawed since it depended on everyone involved being more aggressive and stupid than usual.

I especially don't like how this event made Captain America a jerk since he's one of my favorite Marvel characters. He's Captain America. He's not supposed to be a jerk.

[ablackraptor]

Fixed the options now, there's now a B.5, basically being the story sucked but the X-Men aren't great.

[abriel]

I take great offense at the idea that those of us who aren't all but fellating Cyclops after this event are "taking the story at face value". Yes he turned out to be right about how the Phoenix should have gone to Hope in the first place and all that jazz. It does not however in any way justify the things he did, such as killing Xavier nor all his racist "us vs. the world" militant separatist stuff for the past decade.

I realize people are going to have their favorite characters and nothing I will say will change anyone's minds. However I feel a tad insulted by the implication that just because I'm not hopping on the Scott Worshipping bandwagon that I must not have noted the plot holes and problems and read the event shallowly.

With that I think I'll take my leave. I've had enough.

[mrstatham]

Yeah, this. I think it's fairly plain Scott had a point when he says he's right about what the Phoenix wanted, but again - He was basically, from the way I interpreted it, talking about it like it was some kind of weapon, like it was something that could benefit Utopia. He was the leader of an island nation barely off the coast of the United States wanting a cosmic entity to come and possess a girl he was playing ward to under terms said girl wasn't entirely pleased by.

Not, of course, that Logan's misinformation spree helped, but still.

Something that should be made note of

[halloweenjack]

For your next trick, Hope, use the Captain Universe powers to erase One More Day!

FUCK YES

Re: Something that should be made note of

[azure_flame_god003]

And use the Infinity Gems to go back and prevent DC from rebooting its entire universe without the faintest whiff of a coherent long-term plan!

[big_daddy_d]

I was more Team Avengers. Still am, but to be honest, I find the story pointless if the reveal was gonna be that Cyclops was right about the Phoenix. Still, part of me likes the story because it pretty much stuck to the premise: Avengers vs X-Men. It's in the title, albeit it ended up turning into the Avengers vs Phoenix Five...then Phoenix Five vs Everyone and each other. All in all, the ideal was it was supposed to be a smackfest and that's what it was. I went in knowing that characterizations would be damned.

I won't lie there are frustating moments, especially the X-Men apologists on the internet. People gotta be held accountable for their actions and I still believe that the X-Men had so many opportunities to be the bigger team, but not only did they not take the opportunity, they came off just as bad if not worst than the Avengers. Also something that highly annoys me is who threw the first punch...IT IS FUCKIN CLEAR AS DAY! CYCLOPS SHOT FIRST! Jesus! Were people wearing shades indoors while reading the first issue? It doens't matter whose side you're on. Just....gah! Common sense people! Cap may have came in and left Cyclops no option other than to have Hope go with the Avengers, but goddammit, Cyclops was just as much on edge the moment the Quinjet even arrived. Everyone was on edge. It was cheesy, typical fight time to where everyone is pretty much, "Alright..let's do this."

Avengers: "We want the girl. Whether you want us to or not."

X-Men: *No!" *Cyclops blasts Cap*

Avengers: "Hey! He just shot our leader yo! Oh it is on!"

X-Men: "Charge!"

*Fighting starts*

Macho Man Randy Savage looking down from heaven: "Oooooooooh Yeaaaah!!"

[an_idol_mind]

Personally, I get that Marvel wants heroes versus heroes because that's where the sales are. I just wish they could do their smackfests without turning heroes into bad guys. Go back to the old standards of having mind-controlled heroes or cosmic entities forcing the good guys to battle. When the setup to the Marvel versus DC crossover of the 90s was better than your event, you know you're doing something wrong.

[majingojira]

Honestly? I didn't care. I don't read about the big, top tier characters. I avoid events wherever possible and unless it effects the little B and C listersI follow, I don't pay much heed to them unless the story is actually good.

This wasn't. So I just ignored it.

[ablackraptor]

The only problem is hat there's some top tier characters that I grew up with and as such follow them to keep tabs on where they are.

[lucky_gamble]

That was an amazing entry. Captured all the irritating plot holes, diminished IQ's, poor storytelling and character assassinations oh so perfectly. In my eyes, to take a side in this event is to say that the story made sense. It stopped somewhere around the time the Thing beat Namor underwater and Colossus in a face-to-face fight.

[blunderbuss]

Or maybe it could be E), where yote the plot holes and problems in the story, and believe the Avengers were in the right. You really should realize that framing fan opinion between 'swallow the story wholesale' or 'seeing the light and supporting Cyclops' is more than a little sketchy.

And besides, you can hardly say that Cyclops was right when it wasn't him that prepared Hope to successfuly accept the Phoenix. Remember when it showed up on the moon? SHE COULDN'T HANDLE IT. She SAID so. She asked Wolverine to KILL her.

It's only after the Avengers trained her (and probably after seeing with her own eyes what the Phoenix can do to people) that she could accept the power. Cyclops can take the credit for holding onto the PF until she was ready, but if they followed his plan? Hope would have lost it and goodbye world.

If anything, it was a GROUP effort. The only difference being that the Avengers weren't fascist assholes whilst doing so.

[long_silence]

Because Spider-Man teaching her to carry buckets of water was so damn important to learning how to control the Phoenix Force.

If anything, it was a GROUP effort. The only difference being that the Avengers weren't fascist assholes whilst doing so.

No they were the assholes who invaded Utopia with the intention of kidnapping Hope and then started attacking X-men across the globe in order to "learn how to stop the P5" but in the process just pissed them off and drove them over the edge

[kenn_el]

I'd want a shirt that says 'Free Cyclops', but I'd be afraid it'd be misinterpreted.

[lucky_gamble]

Oh it sounds fantastic actually

[md84]

I wonder how much of the Cyclops support is because he and the X-men have been Marvel's underdogs for decades. People always root for the underdog. Not saying that's the only reason to find Scott sympathetic, but I also don't like the implication that people who don't think Cyclops was right are reading the story wrong.

And the idea that Scott would have done everything all over again knowing the outcome (the return of the X-gene and Xavier's death at his hands) is a little disconcerting.

[theflames]

Well he seems to realise and cherish the mutants role in the 616 Universe, on a cosmic level, so I guess one man's death is worth it if the rest of the world lived and he got his mutants back.

Fair dues. Cruel, a little evil - but more anti hero.

[shadowpsykie]

i am just glad this tired, character assassination-y story is over and done with.

instead of once again asserting my opinions, I'll just leave it at this, the Avengers get away smelling like roses in the public eye. the X-men once again are kicked and "put in their place" beneath the avengers' heals.

i want that t-shirt, because i am in team cyclops...

(not saying he is blameless... because he is not.... but you poke and prod and tease the tiger in the cage... one day he WILL bite you)

[brooms]

buying and wearing this would be publicly acknowledging (and advertising) this event, which i think is way more than it - and marvel as a publishing company - deserves.

[ablackraptor]

Valid point. Maybe a 'Marvel, sort your $&!£ out' would suffice without drawing attention to this event specifically.

[angelophile]

Can I get a "THE X-MEN AND THE AVENGERS WERE BOTH WRONG" T-shirt any time soon?

[salinea]

I'll wear it if you find it.

[jmacq1]

This event was just as coherent as Civil War (this is not a compliment) and was so blatantly modeled after it that it's almost been physically painful just to read the tidbits I've seen posted here and elsewhere. It's probably mildly telling of my opinion that I was a regular comic buyer when Civil War happened. After said event was concluded, I was not. Both sides were portrayed as petty, stupid, and faux-justified with the flimsiest of excuses.

On one hand "Cyclops was right" in the technical sense. They even went out of their way to portray him as the one member of the Phoenix Five that seemed (at least on the surface) to be maintaining control, yet at the same time unwilling or unable to corral his rapidly-going-bonkers teammates. The thing is, in a lot of ways Cyclops' "self-control" has always been a sham. It's a facade for a guy that's pretty much constantly on the verge of falling apart. What damns Cyclops (aside from the whole killing Xavier thing), is that once he had the power of the Phoenix, the one thing he didn't do is try to re-empower/rekindle mutantkind.

Now, you might be able to justify the initial actions of the P5 as trying to create a world where the impending resurgent mutants could flourish, but this was never addressed that I know of in all the books. There was no long term plan (at least that was illustrated on page), there was just "We're in charge now, and if you don't like it, oh well. If you actually fight us on it, we'll imprison you in Hell, because it's not like the power of the Phoenix gives us a vast multitude of nonlethal, non-torturous ways we could handle the situation, right?"

Of course, if the characters and events were well-written and true to their established personalities and histories, the event wouldn't have happened at all. God forbid a respectful, humble (which he's supposed to be) Captain America approach Cyclops and say "Hey, the Phoenix is coming and it's killed a few worlds along the way. You folks know more about this thing than we do. How do we work together to make sure this thing doesn't destroy Earth?" Instead, Cap showed up acting pretty much exactly like Tony Stark did in Civil War, which is never going to turn out well, especially with a group of people with as long a history of "screw the man" as the X-Men.

[salinea]

That sums up pretty well why I thought both sides were wrong.

[crabby_lioness]

There's two ways to determine who wins something:

1) Who's right, and

2) Who's in charge when the smoke clears.

We always knew the Avengers were going to be #2. So Marvel threw a bone to X-Fans and gave them the "who's right" victory. Big whoop. Although completely in line with the Avengers' history of behaving horrendously and not apologizing or attempting restitution simply because they're the biggest whup-asses around.