Amazing Spider-Man #700

[cyberghostface]

Dying in Dr. Octopus' body, Spidey confronts Ock (in his body) one last time. Peter is unable to transfer his consciousness back, but as his life flashes before his eyes Ock receives them as well via their mental link, with himself in place of Peter in them.



Ock (still in Spidey's body) tells Spidey he doesn't want this, and asks how he can do what Spidey does. Spidey (in Ock's body) tells him that he has to, because with great power...



But "Ock" is dead.





While this will probably last as long as Captain America's death did, I actually like the idea of a (reformed?) Ock as Spider-Man. I think there's a lot of potential with this idea and I'm definitely on board for Superior Spider-Man.

So I'm surprised to say this, but kudos to Slott. I'm looking forward to see where Ock!Spidey goes from here.

EDIT: There's an interesting write-up here.

Comments

[sadoeuphemist]

What kind of transformation is this? He has basically killed Peter Parker as a result of his actions, and his response is to say he will be superior to Peter and be a better Peter Parker than Peter ever was. How on earth would have sharing Peter's memories and guilt and sense of responsibility and so on have led him to this conclusion? It's nonsensical.

[arbre_rieur]

It's imbued him with a morality of sorts, but he still has his innate arrogance.

[sadoeuphemist]

And on what is this morality based? If he's experienced all of Peter's memories (a montage of cradling dead people in his arms), we would think that he has acquired a form of guilt-based morality. He would be driven to act because of the people he has failed to protect, the times he has failed to live up to responsibilities. He cannot bear to let people be hurt because of his inaction.

But Doc Ock, having just killed Peter Parker, doesn't feel guilty. He's not trying to figure out a way to re-wire Peter Parker's brain meats and bring Peter Parker back. He's not torn up by the thought of having to deal with Peter Parker's loved ones, now that the man they cared about is dead. Instead, he's thinking to himself how he'll be superior to Parker, meaning that it's probably a good thing that he got to take over Parker's life.

This is just completely arbitrary. Slott expects us to believe that Spider-man's memories and experiences would make Ock want to continue being the man he killed and stole the identity of, while still remaining a sociopathic narcissist. It's substituting scientific mumbo-jumbo for character development.

[arbre_rieur]

People can be sociopath narcissists yet still follow their own code of morality. See: Dr. Doom.

[sadoeuphemist]

Yes, I am asking you to elaborate on Octo-Spiderman's morality. How has he reached these decisions? How do his actions make any sense given the experiences he has had? If he is a sociopathic narcissist, why would Parker's memories have any effect on him?

I mean, I would understand a Sociopathic Spider-man, where Ock is taking over Peter's life and raping Mary Jane to feed his enormous ego. I'm not complaining that Ock is a sociopath. I'm complaining that his actions are nonsensical and that the story is poorly written.

[icon_uk]

Because they're not "Parkers memories" anymore, they are now his own and he can't escape that. He's experienced a sort of "Road to Damascus" moment, though not through his own experiences, but by acquiring Peter's.

Peter's compassion and heroism has "infected" Otto's personality, not overwhelming it, but certainly informing it in new ways.

[sadoeuphemist]

Yes, how so? In what way? What are the moral principles he follows?

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Spider-man works on a guilt-based morality. He cannot bear to have people die when he could have done something to save them. That's why the illustration of his morality is him holding a sequence of dying people.

Dr. Octopus is not behaving as though he is guilty of causing Peter Parker's death. He is not torn up at the idea of having to deceive all of Peter Parker's loved ones, now that Parker is dead at his hands. He is not trying to rewire his/Peter Parker's brain and bring Peter Parker back. His heroism is ego-based: he will be a better Spider-man than Spider-man.

What on earth has he learned from Peter Parker's memories that lead him to decide to be a hero?

[icon_uk]

In short, and to repeat a trope, "With great power comes great responsibility". This is not a lessson Otto ever learned, until now, but now it's a part of him.

Peter Parker worked on guilt based morality, but informed by the above. Otto can learn from one and become the other, but filtered through his own, dominant, perceptions. He won't let innocent people die either, but he might do so by very different means to Peter, such as killing the one doing the threatening. By preventing those people from threatening/harming others ever again, his ego would be satisfied too because he'd have gone one "better" than Peter.

[lorriek]

I don't see how they expect us to think Ock's decision is based on anything other than than egoism. The dude just murdered a man so he can wear his body and he seems pretty okay with it. He's certainly not going to confess to the Avengers or anything. The only thing that being inserted into Peter's memories seemed to achieve was Ock deciding that he could be a superior hero compared to Peter. This may be preferable to Ock using Peter's body for evil, but it's not a decision based on any sort of morality. If we are supposed to think differently, Slott should have written it differently.