Batman #16

[cyberghostface]

So Batman has tracked down Joker in Arkham Asylum (where he's with some of Batman's other rogues) and manages to gain the upper hand when Mister J reveals he has another trick up his sleeve.

 





There's also a back-up story by Capullo after this where the other villains fight over who gets to kill Batman, causing Joker to trap them between some bars.



So what's underneath? I hope it's not one of Alfred's body parts...

Comments

[darkknightjrk]

Yeah, but again, why would Penguin and Two-Face be stunned by it?

[aeka]

Because like I said it has to be someone very significant in Batman's life for the shock to matter. And if the Joker has dished out any details about Batman to either Two-Face and Penguin, then I would think killing the most significant person that humanises Batman in a very brutal way would be enough to shock them in an 'OMG! You outdid yourself! sort of way.

[darkknightjrk]

That assumes that Joker did tell them anything--hell, it assumes that Joker actually DOES know who everyone really is.

[aeka]

'hell, it assumes that Joker actually DOES know who everyone really is'

Isn't that the point, though? He did know who Barbara's mum and brother was.

Also, for him to get Oswald and Riddler interested in joining him on this latest 'game' he had to have told them *something* of value. They weren't originally interested in joining him on this latest scheme as the previous back-ups established.

[darkknightjrk]

The thing is, never once did Joker refer to Barbara Sr. as Babs' mom--and you would think that if he did know who her parents were, and he was doing the wedding theme, he would have added them into the picture.

As for Penguin and Riddler, we've seen in the back-ups why they're playing along--the former so as to not be blamed for a massive gang war, the latter because Joker was going to kill him if he didn't escape from his cell.

[aeka]

The fact that the Joker never referred to Babs Sr as Barbara's mum is not a strong enough argument to disprove the fact that he knew holding her captive and mutilating her would push Barbara to her limits in a very significant way.

If the Joker seriously didn't know that Barbara was Batgirl, why would he target her own mother specifically for 'breaking' her emotionally? Also, wouldn't the Joker just choosing a victim at random completely lessen the impact of Barbara's story, and subsequently render Snyder's comments about the Joker's 'year long absence to return in a big way' utterly pointless? Why take the time to build such a massive and emotionally-charged story arc just to waste everyone's time with a rubbish ending that is subpar to the intensity of the build-up?

[icon_uk]

Why take the time to build such a massive and emotionally-charged story arc just to waste everyone's time with a rubbish ending that is subpar to the intensity of the build-up?

Have you READ many comic book crossover stories?

(Said Icon_UK, sadly only half in jest)

[aeka]

I've read most of them except for RHATO and Teen Titans. Don't like Scott Lobdell. :P

In all seriousness though, will say that out of all of them, the Catwoman one was pretty pointless. Considering she no longer knows who Batman is anymore, I'm not sure why her book even participated in the crossover at all. But the rest? I felt they were pretty emotionally charged, particularly in the case of Batman & Robin and Batgirl, which I felt was the point.

Also, one can't argue that Snyder himself wasn't building towards something big if he wasn't intending to end big, especially if he already stated in a recent interview that the ending isn't for the squeamish. :P

[icon_uk]

I was actually referring to crossovers in the general rather than specific sense, many of have big build ups, disappointing finales and no long term impacts.

[kenn_el]

The rather glaring omission of Batwoman from the crossovers makes the inclusion of Catwoman even more absurd. In the real world publishing sense I understand that Batwoman doesn't need the sales boost that Catwoman might get from being linked, but in terms of Joker's argument as to why he's doing all this, the woman with 'Bat' more importantly in her name than Selina or Barbara would certainly be considered by him to be 'diminishing the brand'.

[icon_uk]

I suspect that since he's never really seen Batman and Batwoman working together or any link of a connection beyond the name), he thinks she's sort of irrelevant to his plan.

[kenn_el]

They have worked together though, and we're led to believe that Joker knows Batman well enough that he's not going to NOT give his blessing to someone using the Bat brand. If nothing else, Inc. would be suing her.

[sadoeuphemist]

I don't know, Snyder apparently intends for the extent of Joker's knowledge to be deliberately ambiguous. Like, the last issue had Batman swearing up and down that no way no how did the Joker know their secret identities, it just wasn't possible. And everyone else's reaction was "Bruce, but what if he does know??" instead of "Bruce, you're completely delusional, of course he knows!! He just tried to kill my mom!!!"

I mean, I agree with you that it's pretty goddamn obvious Joker knows who everyone is, but the story is still treating it like there's a chance he doesn't.

[icon_uk]

The Joker breaking out Dick Grayson's first love turned attempted murderer to target Nightwing, and murdering the clown who was pivotal to Dick's plans to open the amusement park also seems a bit more than a bit of a giveaway.

[kenn_el]

Wasn't Raya in prison for participating in Nightwing's attempted murder? There's ambiguity, as you point out, in that Joker need not know her connection to Dick (which wasn't even established as first love, rather than only girl in a group of friends, IIRC). Jimmy seemed to be Clown On Clown crime. And Barbara's mother was largely orchestrated by Barbara's brother, who apparently does in fact know she's Batgirl, but there's no evidence that he shared that with Joker. (The Batgirl issues being rather pointless either way, in that Barbara's father, whom she is significantly closer to, was an early victim, and much more likely to draw her in to a Joker trap, especially if he DID know her secret, as they were the three involved in TKJ.)

[icon_uk]

She and Saiko set out to blow up the circus because of Dick Grayson, not Nightwing, so no, I don't think she was. They didn't even know he WAS Nightwing for most of their plot (They only knew because Saiko tortured it out of Haly, who somehow knew, though the Court of Owls didn't which given his links to them seemed improbable), but they still planned to kill Dick Grayson, not Nightwing.

Dick being sweet on Raya, and she having more than a passing interest in him, was made very clear in all the flashbacks we saw. It was only because he left and had this beaten to death already trait of "Always moving forward" that he didn't stay in touch until they met up again.

Jimmy had played Gotham City before (and hated it), so him being targeted precisely now is very suggestive that it's Dick the Joker was targeting and Jimmy was a handy calling card, especially since the whole plot built around Nightwing has been "knockoffs"; Jimmy as a knockoff Joker, Raya made into a knockoff Nightwing who fought Dick in a factory which had been closed down because it's product was a knockoff of a Wayne design, and Dick of course being seen by the Joker as a Batman knockoff.

James Jr being one up on the Joker seems like a bit of a stretch, and yes, I don't really know how those stories tie together.

[icon_uk]

A complete set of sidekick masks? The "joke" laboured though it is, could be that he DIDN'T know most of their ID's before now, but because of the patented distrust and angst he suddenly gave everyone by suggesting that he DOES know, he was able to find out.