FF #16

[flint_marko]

Later the Living Tribunal shows up to punish Doom for hurting the Watcher.

Comments

[drtechnobabel]

I think Scott's point here is that Doom does have those things, but that they aren't actually a part of who he is. Rather, they act more like his mask in that they hide the fact that he's an egoist who's primary motivation is to prove himself smarter and generally better than Reed, and that any noble traits he has are a direct result of making himself look like the better man (which, ironically enough, gives him some weird level of depth in my opinion).

Remember, this is a guy who saved a baby and then named it after his lost love just to rub it in Reed's face that he failed and Doom succeeded. This is a man who, according to some sources, first inflicted his massive facial scars when he put red-hot iron on his face because he couldn't wait to hide a very tiny scar he got in the initial lab accident. This is a man who stiffed Luke Cage for $100 because he thought it was beneath him to pay someone he considered a street rat, and only paid up when Cage followed him home, burst into his castle (during a Latverian civil war, no less), and beat him senseless. This is a man who actually managed to conquer the world at one point, actually managed to make it better place, then gave it up because he got BORED. These aren't the actions of a noble demon or an honorable person, but of a vain and petty man who desperately wants to be seen as the former two.

TL;DR: Doom is, in the words of Dr. Horrible, like a pie: he's got a layer of vain egoist on top, but deep down he's a noble ruler who believes that the world would be better under his guidance, and is willing to take power by any means necessary. But then even deeper down, he's still a vain egoist.

[donnblake]

Right. That's certainly an interpretation of Doom. It's not the only way writers have interpreted him, and it's not the one that most appeals to me as a reader. (Actually, it's not the argument Scott's making, either- notice the bit where he says he's had the misfortune to meet people who claim Doom has layers. He seems to claiming that Doom is like a vain petty ruler pudding, with a few sprinkles of culture on top that don't really matter).

Personally, I prefer Doom as a sort of Evil/Nobility swirl. Like those ice creams where you mix two flavors together, and pretty much everything is visible on the surface, but it's not all one thing? I don't know, food metaphors aren't really my forte. I think that he's a vain and petty and ruthless man, and that the good he could do is going to be largely prevented or perverted by his ego. But he's *also* a man with a strict code of honor, who honestly believes that he's the world's last best hope, and that's as much the true him and defines him as much as his flaws.

[thehood]

But in the end, there is a reason why he is a bad guy and Lang has very good reason to not think he's "misunderstood".

[donnblake]

Yes... which I stated I understood. What I was taking issue with was my perception that Scott's speech was aimed as a 'take that' at writers who try and write Doom as anything other than a complete monster.

[arilou_skiff]

I always thought that Doom is an absolutely despicable person, but his very insecurities and "evil" motivations are kind of twisted into something that's *almost* a noble or heroic.

Basically, he's compelled to act in a twisted code of honour, because he is to arrogant and egotistic to do anything less.

[md84]

I think it's interesting that Doom is a genuinely brilliant man with a code of honor and the trappings of nobility who is still hampered by his own ego and inability to admit his mistakes. That's the main difference between him and Reed. Reed has occasionally acknowledged his mistakes and worked to fix them. Which is why Reed is ultimately a little bit smarter and better than Doom; he learns from his mistakes instead of denying them.

[jlbarnett]

except the name Valeria means nothing to Reed. It's not like she'd ever done anything to the FF. So Val's name is a tribute to her, a reminder of both her and his success in this instance for Doom. It actually does nothing to Reed or Sue

[md84]

On the other hand, it did allow Doom to use their daughter as a magical familiar as part of one of his many, many attempts to destroy their lives. Then again, that may have been retconned away.

[grazzt]

Yeah, it's not like he had her named Victoria (although that wouldn't have been too bad). Or some feminine variation on "Doom" (I'm partial to Doomtilda).

[drtechnobabel]

That's probably true on some level for Doom, as even he admits naming the child after himself would be unbelievably vain, but he also says that ultimately the name itself isn't as important as the fact that HE named her, and not Reed. The idea behind it was that every time Reed said her name, he would be reminded that Doom was the one who gave it to her, and thus reminded of the reason WHY he was given that privilege in the first place.