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One of the things I liked the most about Superior Spider-Man was the romance between Otto Octavius (in Peter Parker's body) and Anna Maria Marconi. It gave Otto some humanity but it was also nice to see a non-stereotypical little person for once (although it's getting better with characters like Tyrion from A Song of Ice and Fire).
Anna Maria was first introduced in #5 as 'Peter's tutor.
#6...
Later...
#10...
They started to date after this point.
In #21...
#22...
#30...
Later on, when the Green Goblin has kidnapped her, it's Anna Maria that causes Otto to give back his body to Peter.
#31...
Particularly tragic was this reveal later on in Amazing Spider-Man...
In case you haven't seen it, Peter came clean to her about the mind swap, she believed him and the two have remained friends with one another.
Finally in Superior Spider-Man #32 and #33 (which took place during a time blip earlier in the series where Spidey finds himself stranded in 2099) we have these two scenes.
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Date: 2014-12-28 11:13 pm (UTC)Still I kinda get tugrul's point, it's sex under false pretenses at the very least and still very skeevy, and he did leave an emotional mess for Peter to clean up that was in no way Peter's fault, and had he got Peter an STI, or gotten Anna pregnant well that definitely would not be fair to Peter either.
Of course Otto didn't know Peter'd be coming back...but Brain theft, and murder are even worse crimes... so yeah.
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Date: 2014-12-28 11:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-12-29 01:22 am (UTC)Would you face legal trouble for it probably not since unfortunately a lot of places do not have rape by fraud laws on the book but it would still be rape.
And stealing a neighbors identity isn't very close an analogy. IT would be having plastic surgery to look like someone else. Murdering them in a horrific and painful way and then taking over their life because you can do it better than them. Then meeting someone using their name, reputation and a nice guy act and then beginning a relationship with them.
Sure Anna and Peter mgith not see it for the incredible violation it was but frankly I'll personally never see it as a romantic couple. Anna is a fun character on her own (except when she starts comparing Peter to Otto in an Otto was better way) but her relationship with Otto wasn't heartwarming to me it was chilling.
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Date: 2014-12-29 01:58 am (UTC)All Otto used with Anna Maria was the name. Everything else in terms of reputation and behavior he built up himself with getting a doctorate and starting his own company. It was Otto she fell for. It's stated a couple of times.
And yes it's a violation in that he 'killed' Peter and took over his body but that doesn't make his actions towards Anna Maria rape.
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Date: 2014-12-29 02:12 am (UTC)I'd lay good odds that if you asked Anna if she'd sleep with a murderer who was wearing someone else's face she'd probably say no and since that is exactly what Otto was then that makes it rape by deception.
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Date: 2014-12-29 02:15 am (UTC)http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4509334.html
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Date: 2014-12-29 02:19 am (UTC)Fisk is also attempting to leave his life behind. You can't argue Otto is doing the same cause he's prancing around in a Peter Suit living his life. It is an ongoing crime. I'd still be skeeved out by Otto and Anna but I'd find it a great deal less skeevy if Otto had faked Peter's death and gone off to Cleveland as some guy named (insert alias here) and met a girl there living as openly as possible as the man he actual was. Instead of hanging around Peter's friends and family like some kind of damned ghoul.
ETA: the Fisk situation is more complicated because we don't know when the sexual component of their relationship started. With Otto and Anna we know for a fact that their sexual relationshp happened while he was living a lie pretending to be Peter. She consented to sleeping with Peter Parker not Otto Octavius murderer.
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Date: 2014-12-29 05:45 am (UTC)Mary Jane knew Peter intimately, before Otto took over. She knew and loved the real Peter Parker. So for Otto to pretend to be Peter and be with her, would indeed have been a gross violation on every level, since he'd have been taking advantage of pre-existing relationships and emotional baggage.
With Anna, she never knew the real Peter Parker. She knew the Peter Parker body housing the mind of Otto Octavius... Weird, yes. Dubious, very. But she had no pre-existing knowledge, emotional connection, conceptions or relationships. And during this time, Peter Parker was as good as dead, as far as everyone was concerned. I don't think even his ghost was around at that point. So as far as the thing between Otto and Anna was concerned, it was a fresh start for them both. Sure, he used the name and the body, but the mind and attitude and experiences were all his. The emotional connection that developed, the mutual respect, the chemistry, that was all genuine, inasmuch as Otto could be genuine while living a lie. But let's assume that it's okay in a superhero universe for one man to pretend to be another...
Yeah, Otto playing off of Peter's connection to former friends, to family, that was wrong and creepy. But Anna came in as a blank slate, and she fell in love with the Peter Parker she met... who, for all intents and purposes, was entirely different from the one other people knew.
You could make a VERY fascinating and detailed legal, psychological, sociological, and ethical case for identity theft in a superhero world, given the nature of brain swaps, mind control, and even dead people taking over new bodies... Walter Langowski in Snowbird's old body? Valkyrie merging with various humans? Valkyrie and the other dead Defenders possessing humans to come back to life? Pip and Gamora and Adam Warlock doing the same? Doctor Doom using mind transfer to cheat death?
Sticking with Marvel alone, there are a lot of examples of people who cheat death by taking over another person's body, and presumably using their identity, no few of them actual heroes, and the only reason we don't get into this same uproar over them is because most of the time they're much less prominent or the writers never have them get into relationships.
So while the Otto/Anna thing does have some dubious moments, I can accept that, for the period of time in which the real Peter Parker was dead and had no say in what happened to his body, it was okay for Otto to meet and romance a girl who only knew this version of Peter Parker. Which makes this all the more tragic when Otto goes away and the real Peter comes back, and Anna has to deal with an imposter wearing her boyfriend's face...
Oh, and how perfectly Otto is it that he had a multi-phase plan written out for a proposal.
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Date: 2014-12-29 06:01 am (UTC)That is what makes it rape by deception and what makes the relationship so sick and twisted to me. His behavior with his holographic doll version of her makes it abundantly clear that he knows she wouldn't be with him if she knew he was a murderous scum bag walking around in his last victim's body.
He is lying to her about everything, His name, His age, and his history. There is nothing healthy about this relationship. He's got all the power in it and she isn't begin given the option to make her own choices about anything to do with the real him.
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Date: 2014-12-29 09:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-12-29 09:43 am (UTC)If he ever does come back I hope the then writer will make use of the situation for drama rather than an unbelievable happy ending.
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Date: 2014-12-29 10:02 am (UTC)As far as how gross it would be for Anna to run to Otto after everything, isn't this the franchise that had a Gwen Stacy clone run into the arms of a Jackal clone? (Eeeww...)
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Date: 2014-12-29 02:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-12-29 09:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-12-29 11:13 pm (UTC)ETA: if your comparing Megamind as Bernard to Otto as Peter. That's a shaky comparison because to be blunt if Meganard had been sleeping with Roxanne he'd be a rapist. The fact they never got further than a single first kiss before the deception is revealed is the only thing that keeps the movie from crossing that line.
Way to many entertainment products are happy to show things that in real life are fucked up as part of their happy ending plot line. (See Every Rom com where Person A pretends to be something they aren't to get with Person B or to use spiderman again see Peter borderline stalking in his love interest in the Rami Trilogy and Amazing)
Otto knew Anna wouldn't stay with him if she knew so he was never going to tell her. That makes him a rapist. It is one reason the story line creeps me out especially with how many folks defend it. I mean the narrative already glossed over how freaking sick Otto was with his stunt. Otto is no different than real life killers who keep a victims phone and send text messages to family and friends giving them false hope only taken to the extremes that can only happen in a comic book.
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Date: 2014-12-29 10:37 am (UTC)I'm glad you're comparing this to Mary Jane, because then suddenly people see the issue with the body snatch. My issue is that the nature of a crime doesn't change just because a victim knew the culprit or not. If this were to have happened in the real world I would never believe a person like Anna wouldn't see this as anything other than a gross violation. The reason it didn't go like that is because Slott and the editorial wouldn't use a Spider-Man book to discuss rape, because Spider-Man can be a messed up soap house drama but it can't be dark and gritty enough to write a real falling out. So instead they have Anna cope to the real peter telling her about the body snatch by having her zone out and do what she loves best, cooking.
When a minor doesn't consider statutory rape because they were consenting, doesn't make it not rape. And typically for the masses when such a thing happens and an article is published about some guy or girl doing their teacher there's half the commenters, including adults, that don't see anything wrong because the minor was consenting. As if consent by deceit is good for anything. Yet ask the same teenager about how they felt about it years later when they've come into their own as an adult and they might feel they were grossly violated, because as a minor they didn't take in the gravity of it and looking back they would've chosen / acted differently. I know it's typical for adults to look back to stuff they did as teenagers differently like having a drink too much or a stunt they pulled, but there's a reason why we regulate with laws and draw the line at sexual relations between a minor and an adult. In the same way I feel Anna's consent was by a deceit she learned of later and therefore rape and had she had all the facts she might not have had a relationship with Otto.
We deem sexual violations of a body as a rape crime whether a victim knows of it happening or not because you have to have uniformity in dealing with it. Hopefully the law'll never make an exception for that one adult who got into it with a teenager because never should it be excusable for whatever seemingly different situation. I don't care if the teen were to be the wisest and most understanding teen in the world. Uniformity is key. Rape is rape is rape is rape.
I don't think Otto excusable just because he didn't do this to Mary Jane. It's only an individual's belief system of "excusability" in a particular situation that permits anything "ungood" from ever happening- and there was never a single rape, punch, theft, white lie, eye roll, gossip, or nuclear bomb dropped that one person didn't believe to be "excusable" if not "righteous".
If that's a bad analogy and someone has some wisdom to impart on me, please do. :) It might give me peace on the matter. You can clearly see my ideas of awareness or justice play into perception of this story. Otto has been turning my stomach.
Any ways, if this went to court in the Marvel Universe it'd be the trial of the century. :)
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Date: 2014-12-29 01:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-12-29 06:30 am (UTC)