Dead to Rights

[cyberghostface]

This story is about the first time that Batman brought the Joker in and what happened in the aftermath.

Warning for suicide

It starts with Batman Confidential #22...









"Nothing."

Joker kills his cellmates. When the police arrive he asks for his phone call.







"... and the other to cut down Detective Shancoe's wife!"

#23...



On his way to court Joker kills the two guards but Batman apprehends him.













#24...







Batman disguises himself as Matches Malone and gets himself arrested as a way to get info on the Joker.







"... or fly along and catch someone who cares."

Joker is sentenced to a psychiatric hospital indefinitely as the judge deems him unfit to stand trial.

Gordon visits Geoff and tells him that he's concerned about his wellbeing, and that he'll have to either take him to an AA meeting or take his gun and shield.





#25...

Geoff lures Batman by attacking the Joker during his transit.





Gordon, with his arm in a sling, tazes the Joker before he can get away. Joker is taken to the newly renovated Arkham Asylum where he is the first patient.

Comments

[q99]

Really, this is the comic that establishes Joker should be shot on sight (or at least, upon confirmation of identity). And any confinement should be isolation.

He can cause deaths with communication, and killed multiple people mid-trial.

[zylly]

Agreed. The Joker's gotten to the point (and given that this was supposed to be the first time Batman captured the Joker, was always at that point) where there would probably even be a national law that you could shoot the Joker in the head in the middle of fifth avenue and walk away free.

How he hasn't been shot "resisting arrest" by this point suspends disbelief even more than the flying men and magic rings.

Even the insanity defense doesn't work. Unlike, say, Victor, Eddie, or Harvey, the Joker's made it abundantly clear that there's no coming back from what he is. He should have gotten the chair or the firing squad or something ages ago.

[icon_uk]

You wouldn't even need a law because good luck finding a jury that would find you guilty. They'd be more likely to recommend you the medal of valour

[zylly]

I'm not even sure you could get enough people to actually serve as a jury. I doubt there's anyone who hasn't heard enough about the Joker to be prejudiced against him.

[hotfoot]

Going to be honest, that he's high profile is the only reason in the world that I can see for nothing happening to him, just because added scrutiny is on him.

But just starting out? No reason he wasn't given any number of Gotham PD specials.

[icon_uk]

Added scrutiny is on him yes, but his deathcount is so high that the number of people who wouldn't care about the consequences to themselves would be significant too.

[hotfoot]

True, but when one looks at real-world examples that approximate this sort of thing, the more attention the case gets, the more everyone involved is put under a microscope for fear of the guy getting off on appeal or filing retaliatory suits. There's a reason certain people get taken alive and treated with what are effectively kid's gloves up until the trial.

After a while though, they would stop putting him in Arkham. Sooner or later he'd end up in Blackgate or something similar, or like the deepest, darkest cells of Amanda Waller's best prison.

[icon_uk]

Thing is, in the real world the Joker would never be in Arkham because he's not legally insane.

Someone who is legally insane is someone who cannot, through mental disease or disorder, associate their actions with the outcomes.

So if you shoot someone , to be able to claim insanity, your lawyer would need to be able to demonstrate that you genuinely did not believe that shooting a person would cause them injury, because you believed that the bullets would pass harmlessly through them, or God would stop them, or that they would spontaneously turn into harmless rainbows en route.

The Joker knows exactly what his actions will do, he just doesn't CARE, and in fact seems to enjoy them.

Arkham Asylum only came into being in the 1970's, prior to that the Joker was always in a normal prison

[shadowpsykie]

but wouldn't not caring construe a lack of empathy and there by reason mental defect or disability?

[icon_uk]

AFAIK (and I'm not a lawyer) depraved indifference is not legally classifiable as insanity.

[q99]

The issue is partially when he's in the wild again. Given this and demonstrated repeated fatal danger even when *apparently* harmless, shooting him can reasonably be judged self defense, period.

Also, being an active danger trumps most other concerns for incarceration. Joker is a clear fatal active danger in all known forms of incarceration- he's killed Arkham guards before too.

[q99]

You just really gotta search out media-isolated individuals.

[liliaeth]

hell, shooting the joker should be seen as self defense, just by matter of it being the Joker...

[janegray]

I'm convinced this is why the writers awkwardly moved Jason out of stories with the Joker (or only include him as hostage that gets knocked out early on). There is just no way to keep rejecting his "just shoot him already!" demand without making Batman come across as incredibly ineffectual.

[q99]

Pretty much. And it'd be entirely sensible to do so, and Batman stopping him would honestly make him the baddie.

Heck, *Dick Grayson* tried to kill Joker once. If Dick Grayson is at the edge of killing someone, that really says something.

[tcampbell1000]

I appreciate that at least he progresses from unrestrained to handcuffs to full straitjacket over the course of the story, showing SOME escalating caution on the part of the law, but you're not wrong.

I can accept that Gordon's ironclad morality, even stricter than Batman's, will not permit him to kill the Joker or sanction police killing him without a justifiable homicide situation. "By the book" from TKJ and all that. But even after Gordon cleaned up the force, the other cops on it are still capable of going off script. Why BULLOCK hasn't killed the Joker yet, that's the real mystery.

[jeremyp]

This illustrates why I can't suspend disbelief for Batman's enemies. There is no way that United States society as it exists today (or has existed historically) would allow rampant, public, repeat murderers like the Joker to exist.

In order for them to exist people would have to have given up any hope of law and order, social structures would have to be nonexistent, and law enforcement useless.

That's without looking at how ridiculous the depiction of the court system and the prison system are in these stories.

Of course, there are places in the real world with tremendous lawlessness, but the United States, which is where these stories take place, is not one of those places.

All of the above plays a big role in my general disinterest in Batman stories.

[q99]

Extra weird thing: Gotham is supposed to have a death penalty.

[jaxjyls]

This all feels extremely contrived

[mastermahan]

Very much so. Convincing a woman she should kill herself immediately rather than saying goodbye to her beloved husband first, when taking a bit of time won't cost anything more in terms of medical bills, and with Joker having no idea what the doctor's voice sounds like? Improbable.

Managing to move his handcuffed hands from in front of him to behind him without any of the guards there specifically to watch the deranged murderer noticing? Incredibly unlikely.

Somehow managing to drop a banana peel from his pants sleeve in just such a way as to cause his victim to fall at the exact angle that she immediately dies? At this point, it's fucking black magic.

[cyberghostface]

I think it would be contrived if this was all some elaborate plan on Joker's part as opposed to him just fucking with people. He'd probably still find it funny if the woman tripped regardless if the fall was fatal or not.

[icon_uk]

See, that would have made this a much more interesting story. The Joker committing multiple "pranks" which might or might not kill, and he really doesn't care which, but he finds the deadly ones just a little bit more amusing. Show the start of the escalation from criminal prankster into murder machine.

[q99]

Yea, if he caused all sort of annoying but non-fatal havoc, it'd make it scary because it shows he *can* act without being restrained, he's messing with the court right there and then, but without the multiple deaths that'd signal to everyone "Ok he must die now."

[beyondthefringe]

And flicking a peanut into the glass without anyone noticing...

I don't doubt that under the right circumstances, the Joker can accomplish terrible things, but this was all just a little -too- hyper-competent, especially for a "first" story.

[lilacsigil]

Yes, I agree. Also, if the judge has an allergy that severe, he will have an Epi-pen. It's possible that he'll still die, especially if it's not administered properly, but he won't be bleeding from the mouth or having a heart attack!

[lissa_quon]

I'm trying to figure out how he swallowed it without noticing.

It's a peanut - its not dissolved in there - if he's sipping it he's probably going to notice it before he swallows it.

[lilacsigil]

If his allergy is that severe, he wouldn't have to swallow the peanut. The degree of contact from drinking water that a peanut was in would be enough of an exposure.

[lissa_quon]

If its that severe - it looks like we are back to the "he'd have an epi-pen" argument.

[lilacsigil]

Exactly!

[wizardru]

It's not impossible to have a peanut allergy so severe that it would kill you, but it wouldn't kill you in seconds and it certainly wouldn't have you bleed from your mouth. The judge should have had a couple of hours before the symptoms would kill him (and again, if he's that bad, he'd have an epi-pen). The question of how he got the peanuts and why he's allowed to hold on to them is an equal mystery.

I mean, I get what they're trying to do here, but it's just so over the top to be ridiculous.

[lamashtar]

The Joker is also Bullseye, apparently.

[shadur]

His superpower works on a twisted form of Rule Of Funny -- the more gruesomely hilarious a scenario is, the more likely it is he'll pull it off.

(Not linking to TVTropes because we probably all have better things to do for the next few hours).

[lissa_quon]

Was anything in the story establishing that the dude's wife was receiving medical tests?

Cause honestly, if I got a random call from my doctor (who actually is a woman so I'd be baffled she sounded manly) telling me I was seriously ill and going to die I'd be confused where the info came from. Unless I'd recently had some medical testing or examinations done. I'd have some more questions to ask before I started planning suicide.

Also who breaks that news over a phone?

This is the equivalent of those scam artists who call you saying they are from Microsoft telling you there is something wrong with "your home computer" and you need to give them remote access to everything immediately.

[thanekos]

Do we need multiple shots of Harvey Dent from one side of his face?

Isn't one enough, or even too many?

[cyberghostface]

Honestly didn't notice that. Compared to all the heavy-handed remarks he made in The Long Halloween about duality its subtle.

[angelophile]

Honestly, this summarizes why I have issues with pretty much all modern iterations of The Joker. Because the only way writers seem to think he's scary is if he's ramped up to 11 and given god-like powers.

Whereas I don't find this scary at all, just ridiculous.

[lamashtar]

I think they should move to Joker as non-human entity. He influences people like Parallax or something. Its more interesting to watch how someone else breaks down than this same irredeemable guy.

[bradygirl_12]

Why did they put that poor soul in a cell right next to the Joker in Arkham? Seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

[lego_joker]

Wasn't this written by the showrunner for Supergirl?

[reveen]

That thing with the cops who's wife died is SO STUPID. They make him turn on his fellow cops Batman for no fucking reason, even though it would make perfect sense for him to just roll up and assassinate Joker like how they did Lee Harvey Oswald. That's the ONLY thing that would make sense to happen. But no, he has to go full moron because the Jokers an agent of chaos or some shit.

[cyberghostface]

Couldn't the same be said for Two-Face in The Dark Knight then?

[starwolf_oakley]

Even "affectionate parodies" of THE DARK KNIGHT have this.

AARON ECKHART
You asshole, why did you kill my girlfriend?
HEATH LEDGER
I'm an agent of chaos. I just do things.
AARON ECKHART
Wow, that's some sophisticated characterization there. As soon as I get out of these surprisingly strong bandages, I'm going to kill you!
HEATH LEDGER
Look, you don't want to kill me for murdering her. You want to kill everyone else for failing to stop me from murdering her!
AARON ECKHART
That doesn't make any sense at all.
HEATH LEDGER
And yet, it's going to be your main character motivation for the rest of the movie. Now make with the murder, Sir Skins-A-Lot.

[reveen]

The Dark Knight was kind of stupid to. But it had being a well made entertaining movie going for it and it makes a little more sense because Dent becomes a super villain.

This is just piss.

[cyberghostface]

The guy here becomes a supervillain later on as well.

[arthur_wynne]

This story.... gaaah.

I can't even work up a reasoned critique. It's just the worst.

[q99]

It's an attempt to make Joker more 'dangerous' but mainly highlights how absurd everyone else acts around him.