cyberghostface: (Two-Face)
[personal profile] cyberghostface posting in [community profile] scans_daily

This story is about the first time that Batman brought the Joker in and what happened in the aftermath.

Warning for suicide

It starts with Batman Confidential #22...


Joker kills his cellmates. When the police arrive he asks for his phone call.

"... and the other to cut down Detective Shancoe's wife!"


On his way to court Joker kills the two guards but Batman apprehends him.


Batman disguises himself as Matches Malone and gets himself arrested as a way to get info on the Joker.

"... or fly along and catch someone who cares."

Joker is sentenced to a psychiatric hospital indefinitely as the judge deems him unfit to stand trial.

Gordon visits Geoff and tells him that he's concerned about his wellbeing, and that he'll have to either take him to an AA meeting or take his gun and shield.


Geoff lures Batman by attacking the Joker during his transit.

Gordon, with his arm in a sling, tazes the Joker before he can get away. Joker is taken to the newly renovated Arkham Asylum where he is the first patient.

Date: 2017-02-13 12:42 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Really, this is the comic that establishes Joker should be shot on sight (or at least, upon confirmation of identity). And any confinement should be isolation.

He can cause deaths with communication, and killed multiple people mid-trial.

Date: 2017-02-13 01:55 am (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
Agreed. The Joker's gotten to the point (and given that this was supposed to be the first time Batman captured the Joker, was always at that point) where there would probably even be a national law that you could shoot the Joker in the head in the middle of fifth avenue and walk away free.

How he hasn't been shot "resisting arrest" by this point suspends disbelief even more than the flying men and magic rings.

Even the insanity defense doesn't work. Unlike, say, Victor, Eddie, or Harvey, the Joker's made it abundantly clear that there's no coming back from what he is. He should have gotten the chair or the firing squad or something ages ago.

Date: 2017-02-13 02:21 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
You wouldn't even need a law because good luck finding a jury that would find you guilty. They'd be more likely to recommend you the medal of valour

Date: 2017-02-13 02:26 am (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
I'm not even sure you could get enough people to actually serve as a jury. I doubt there's anyone who hasn't heard enough about the Joker to be prejudiced against him.

Date: 2017-02-13 07:10 am (UTC)
hotfoot: THOR DEMANDS PIE! (Default)
From: [personal profile] hotfoot
Going to be honest, that he's high profile is the only reason in the world that I can see for nothing happening to him, just because added scrutiny is on him.

But just starting out? No reason he wasn't given any number of Gotham PD specials.

Date: 2017-02-13 08:18 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Added scrutiny is on him yes, but his deathcount is so high that the number of people who wouldn't care about the consequences to themselves would be significant too.

Date: 2017-02-13 08:26 am (UTC)
hotfoot: THOR DEMANDS PIE! (Default)
From: [personal profile] hotfoot
True, but when one looks at real-world examples that approximate this sort of thing, the more attention the case gets, the more everyone involved is put under a microscope for fear of the guy getting off on appeal or filing retaliatory suits. There's a reason certain people get taken alive and treated with what are effectively kid's gloves up until the trial.

After a while though, they would stop putting him in Arkham. Sooner or later he'd end up in Blackgate or something similar, or like the deepest, darkest cells of Amanda Waller's best prison.

Date: 2017-02-13 11:09 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Thing is, in the real world the Joker would never be in Arkham because he's not legally insane.

Someone who is legally insane is someone who cannot, through mental disease or disorder, associate their actions with the outcomes.

So if you shoot someone , to be able to claim insanity, your lawyer would need to be able to demonstrate that you genuinely did not believe that shooting a person would cause them injury, because you believed that the bullets would pass harmlessly through them, or God would stop them, or that they would spontaneously turn into harmless rainbows en route.

The Joker knows exactly what his actions will do, he just doesn't CARE, and in fact seems to enjoy them.

Arkham Asylum only came into being in the 1970's, prior to that the Joker was always in a normal prison

Date: 2017-02-13 06:49 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
but wouldn't not caring construe a lack of empathy and there by reason mental defect or disability?

Date: 2017-02-13 10:15 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
AFAIK (and I'm not a lawyer) depraved indifference is not legally classifiable as insanity.

Date: 2017-02-13 06:37 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
The issue is partially when he's in the wild again. Given this and demonstrated repeated fatal danger even when *apparently* harmless, shooting him can reasonably be judged self defense, period.

Also, being an active danger trumps most other concerns for incarceration. Joker is a clear fatal active danger in all known forms of incarceration- he's killed Arkham guards before too.

Date: 2017-02-13 06:34 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
You just really gotta search out media-isolated individuals.

Date: 2017-02-14 01:34 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
hell, shooting the joker should be seen as self defense, just by matter of it being the Joker...

Date: 2017-02-13 03:07 am (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
I'm convinced this is why the writers awkwardly moved Jason out of stories with the Joker (or only include him as hostage that gets knocked out early on). There is just no way to keep rejecting his "just shoot him already!" demand without making Batman come across as incredibly ineffectual.

Date: 2017-02-13 06:42 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Pretty much. And it'd be entirely sensible to do so, and Batman stopping him would honestly make him the baddie.

Heck, *Dick Grayson* tried to kill Joker once. If Dick Grayson is at the edge of killing someone, that really says something.

Date: 2017-02-13 03:18 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
I appreciate that at least he progresses from unrestrained to handcuffs to full straitjacket over the course of the story, showing SOME escalating caution on the part of the law, but you're not wrong.

I can accept that Gordon's ironclad morality, even stricter than Batman's, will not permit him to kill the Joker or sanction police killing him without a justifiable homicide situation. "By the book" from TKJ and all that. But even after Gordon cleaned up the force, the other cops on it are still capable of going off script. Why BULLOCK hasn't killed the Joker yet, that's the real mystery.

Date: 2017-02-14 02:18 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jeremyp
This illustrates why I can't suspend disbelief for Batman's enemies. There is no way that United States society as it exists today (or has existed historically) would allow rampant, public, repeat murderers like the Joker to exist.

In order for them to exist people would have to have given up any hope of law and order, social structures would have to be nonexistent, and law enforcement useless.

That's without looking at how ridiculous the depiction of the court system and the prison system are in these stories.

Of course, there are places in the real world with tremendous lawlessness, but the United States, which is where these stories take place, is not one of those places.

All of the above plays a big role in my general disinterest in Batman stories.

Date: 2017-02-14 03:13 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Extra weird thing: Gotham is supposed to have a death penalty.

Date: 2017-02-13 01:42 am (UTC)
jaxjyls: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaxjyls
This all feels extremely contrived

Date: 2017-02-13 03:32 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Very much so. Convincing a woman she should kill herself immediately rather than saying goodbye to her beloved husband first, when taking a bit of time won't cost anything more in terms of medical bills, and with Joker having no idea what the doctor's voice sounds like? Improbable.

Managing to move his handcuffed hands from in front of him to behind him without any of the guards there specifically to watch the deranged murderer noticing? Incredibly unlikely.

Somehow managing to drop a banana peel from his pants sleeve in just such a way as to cause his victim to fall at the exact angle that she immediately dies? At this point, it's fucking black magic.

Date: 2017-02-13 08:20 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
See, that would have made this a much more interesting story. The Joker committing multiple "pranks" which might or might not kill, and he really doesn't care which, but he finds the deadly ones just a little bit more amusing. Show the start of the escalation from criminal prankster into murder machine.

Date: 2017-02-13 06:44 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Yea, if he caused all sort of annoying but non-fatal havoc, it'd make it scary because it shows he *can* act without being restrained, he's messing with the court right there and then, but without the multiple deaths that'd signal to everyone "Ok he must die now."

Date: 2017-02-13 04:55 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
And flicking a peanut into the glass without anyone noticing...

I don't doubt that under the right circumstances, the Joker can accomplish terrible things, but this was all just a little -too- hyper-competent, especially for a "first" story.

Date: 2017-02-13 05:14 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: 12 Apostles rocks, text "Rock On" (12 Apostles)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
Yes, I agree. Also, if the judge has an allergy that severe, he will have an Epi-pen. It's possible that he'll still die, especially if it's not administered properly, but he won't be bleeding from the mouth or having a heart attack!

Date: 2017-02-13 06:41 am (UTC)
lissa_quon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lissa_quon
I'm trying to figure out how he swallowed it without noticing.

It's a peanut - its not dissolved in there - if he's sipping it he's probably going to notice it before he swallows it.

Date: 2017-02-13 07:36 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: 12 Apostles rocks, text "Rock On" (12 Apostles)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
If his allergy is that severe, he wouldn't have to swallow the peanut. The degree of contact from drinking water that a peanut was in would be enough of an exposure.

Date: 2017-02-13 08:16 am (UTC)
lissa_quon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lissa_quon
If its that severe - it looks like we are back to the "he'd have an epi-pen" argument.

Date: 2017-02-13 07:23 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
It's not impossible to have a peanut allergy so severe that it would kill you, but it wouldn't kill you in seconds and it certainly wouldn't have you bleed from your mouth. The judge should have had a couple of hours before the symptoms would kill him (and again, if he's that bad, he'd have an epi-pen). The question of how he got the peanuts and why he's allowed to hold on to them is an equal mystery.

I mean, I get what they're trying to do here, but it's just so over the top to be ridiculous.

Date: 2017-02-13 09:00 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
The Joker is also Bullseye, apparently.

Date: 2017-02-14 08:06 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] shadur
His superpower works on a twisted form of Rule Of Funny -- the more gruesomely hilarious a scenario is, the more likely it is he'll pull it off.

(Not linking to TVTropes because we probably all have better things to do for the next few hours).

Date: 2017-02-13 06:46 am (UTC)
lissa_quon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lissa_quon
Was anything in the story establishing that the dude's wife was receiving medical tests?

Cause honestly, if I got a random call from my doctor (who actually is a woman so I'd be baffled she sounded manly) telling me I was seriously ill and going to die I'd be confused where the info came from. Unless I'd recently had some medical testing or examinations done. I'd have some more questions to ask before I started planning suicide.

Also who breaks that news over a phone?

This is the equivalent of those scam artists who call you saying they are from Microsoft telling you there is something wrong with "your home computer" and you need to give them remote access to everything immediately.

Date: 2017-02-13 01:48 am (UTC)
thanekos: Lora, crafting. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Do we need multiple shots of Harvey Dent from one side of his face?

Isn't one enough, or even too many?

Date: 2017-02-13 01:02 pm (UTC)
angelophile: (Default)
From: [personal profile] angelophile
Honestly, this summarizes why I have issues with pretty much all modern iterations of The Joker. Because the only way writers seem to think he's scary is if he's ramped up to 11 and given god-like powers.

Whereas I don't find this scary at all, just ridiculous.

Date: 2017-02-13 09:02 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
I think they should move to Joker as non-human entity. He influences people like Parallax or something. Its more interesting to watch how someone else breaks down than this same irredeemable guy.

Date: 2017-02-13 02:50 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (pumpkin muffin (bats))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
Why did they put that poor soul in a cell right next to the Joker in Arkham? Seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

Date: 2017-02-13 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] lego_joker
Wasn't this written by the showrunner for Supergirl?

Date: 2017-02-13 04:31 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
That thing with the cops who's wife died is SO STUPID. They make him turn on his fellow cops Batman for no fucking reason, even though it would make perfect sense for him to just roll up and assassinate Joker like how they did Lee Harvey Oswald. That's the ONLY thing that would make sense to happen. But no, he has to go full moron because the Jokers an agent of chaos or some shit.

Date: 2017-02-13 09:49 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Even "affectionate parodies" of THE DARK KNIGHT have this.

You asshole, why did you kill my girlfriend?
I'm an agent of chaos. I just do things.
Wow, that's some sophisticated characterization there. As soon as I get out of these surprisingly strong bandages, I'm going to kill you!
Look, you don't want to kill me for murdering her. You want to kill everyone else for failing to stop me from murdering her!
That doesn't make any sense at all.
And yet, it's going to be your main character motivation for the rest of the movie. Now make with the murder, Sir Skins-A-Lot.

Date: 2017-02-13 10:57 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
The Dark Knight was kind of stupid to. But it had being a well made entertaining movie going for it and it makes a little more sense because Dent becomes a super villain.

This is just piss.

Date: 2017-02-13 06:36 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arthur_wynne
This story.... gaaah.

I can't even work up a reasoned critique. It's just the worst.

Date: 2017-02-13 06:41 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
It's an attempt to make Joker more 'dangerous' but mainly highlights how absurd everyone else acts around him.


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