Wonder Woman and Robin's shared interests

[galateus.insanejournal.com]

Thought experiment: Has DC found an excuse yet for Wonder Woman to tie up the Boy Wonder? (If they haven't, is it because the resulting bondage explosion could not be contained by mere ink and paper?)

Googling for the two only turned up some relevant news about one of Diana's potential(ly bondage-themed) upcoming storylines.

For legality, when Wonder Woman met Jason Todd:

Comments

[kamino_neko.insanejournal.com]

The looks on Bruce and Jay's faces in that last panel are pretty priceless.

On the other hand, Jay looks so damn much like Nite Owl it's mildly disturbing.

Forget All-Star Superman

[(Anonymous)]

For my money, Superman Annual 11 (where this is from) is the best Superman story of all time.

JRVJ

[kingrockwell]

Well, it is Dave Gibbons.

[parsimonia.insanejournal.com]

AAAHAHAHAHAHA I had no idea where that "think clean thoughts, chum" line came from until now! I love it!

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

It's a shame that he never uses that term anymore - it's kind of a trademark of his, but one that he's let lapse. Personally, I think it would be kind of cool if 'chum' was basically the word he uses for either a friend or an enemy, but nothing in between - for example, if he uses it while palling around with the Batclan, it's kind of endearing; if, on the other hand, it's something he says to a criminal from between gritted teeth in a dark alleyway, it is ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING. In other words, you'll know just where you stand with Bats by how (or if) he uses his special word.

[icon_uk.insanejournal.com]

I can't recall her ever tying Robin up, or even using the the truth compulsion element of it on him. They really haven't interacted that much.

This is probably the closest thing to come to mind when you asked, and she's not really tying him up with it.

(http://pics.livejournal.com/icon_uk/pic/00311psh)

[superfan1.insanejournal.com]

Everybody surprise except aquaman, with his now see here missy pose lol.

[galateus.insanejournal.com]

Yeah, they really haven't. Diana doesn't fit in in Gotham and isn't much of a sidekick person either; when it's Batman and Robin on a team Robin gets less of the spotlight... For the Man Who Has Everything was the only meeting I could think of off the top of my head.


(I love how THE WONDERTWINS are advertised like they're some kind of selling point.)

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

I need context here. Why is Wondy invisible? Did Dr. Poison spray her and her invisible plane with Reverso, so that they switched conditions?

[superfan1.insanejournal.com]

Ha love that batman did it on purpose, just to get a reaction out of jason.

[icon_uk.insanejournal.com]

He's also probably making a mental note to add more Bat-Bromide to Robin's fruit-smoothie breakfast.

[halloweenjack.insanejournal.com]

I don't think that Robin is covering up purely because of the cold when Diana kisses him.

[proteus_lives.insanejournal.com]

I read the article, I think it would be worthwhile to a modern WW bondage story just to see everyone's reactions.

[fungo_squiggly.insanejournal.com]

I would buy that comic.

For, uh, the characters' reactions, of course. As you said. *shifty eyes*

[minarho1.insanejournal.com]

The way they're wording it pisses me off though. Acting as if the bondage thing was ignored and that bringing it back is SO inventive.

WW's bondage history is ALWAYS addressed. Everytime she has a new writer or artist or her character is guesting on someone else's title its brought up. What the fuck are they talking about?

[sistermagpie.insanejournal.com]

What I love is that he actually doesn't look like Dick. I mean, except for the ways that he also does.

Also, does anyone know the history of the "think clean thoughts, chum" line? Dick used it in Nightwing, and I think Dick told himself to "think clean thoughts" (without the chum, sadly) in maybe Batgirl: YO? Is it something Bruce actually said a lot?

[sistermagpie.insanejournal.com]

Arrrgh. I meant ways that he "always does" meaning he has black hair and here is wearing the same clothes.

[lyraeinne.insanejournal.com]

Wasn't there a scene in Nightwing: YO One where Alfred mistook not!Robin Jason for Dick? For some reason I always had the impression that we were supposed to assume that there was at least a semi-striking resemblance there.

But perhaps no more than there is by default with the boy Robins. Bruce has a type, after all.

[requiem2adream.insanejournal.com]

I think the time Dick tells himself to 'think clean thoughts' comes from the Nightwing Annual 02, rather than Batgirl: YO, when they are locked together in a safe. I posted it here (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/595607.html#cutid1) a few weeks ago - warning, link is image heavy. Just scroll through, you'll get it eventually XD

[lipsofpoison.insanejournal.com]

Hi ickle Pre-Crisis Jay.

[axolotl_lan.insanejournal.com]

That icon is stangely appropriate in the context of the scan above... no stains.

[grimmbear.insanejournal.com]

I just hope that Aquaman never called Aqualad "Chum"
'Cause that would be disturbing.

[kamino_neko.insanejournal.com]

'So, Arthur, what did you say you'd pay the sharks with?'

'Oh, this and that, Chum.'

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

Two things about the article behind the link:
"So, Wonder Woman is a character where you imagine this very strange mélange of girl power, bondage, and a slightly disturbed sexuality."

Marston's Wonder Woman was based on a "slightly disturbed sexuality?" Has he read any comic books in the last 40 years? I have in mind recent scans of John Byrne and Gerry Conway, but further examples aren't hard to find.

"these extremely weird dark elements of Wonder Woman haven't been adequately dealt with."

In Marston's stories, bondage as practiced by Wonder Woman and the Amazons is playful and done with the goal of making everyone involved happier, more loving and better people. It's anything but dark.

I'm picturing Woody Allen saying "Mr. Morrison, meet Dr. Marston. He has something to say to you." "You know nothing about my work."

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

Kyle Baker mentioned in his MODERN MARVELS interview that he's doing some kind of Wonder Woman project. I find, for the first time, that I'm thankful Wonder Woman is so minimal of a seller; it's allowing me to believe, fervently, that Kyle Baker has been given the project they were going to give to Morrison, on the theory that DC would never try to float *two* extraneous Wonder Woman projects at once.

[oddpuppets.insanejournal.com]

I think that Morrison's intent is right. As others have stated, many authors have tried to reconcile the bondage with the positive, feminist stance of Diana. The fact that they continue to do so shows that it's not sticking, or at least not in an ICONIC manner. I consider myself a relatively enlightened adult regarding feminism and it took bluefall's "When Wondy was Awesome" to finally make me think that perhaps there WAS something to be found in Diana.

There are several factors that I think keep Diana from really being an icon. And I don't think she's an icon at the moment. She might be a cultural one - when people are asked what superheroines there are, obviously Wonder Woman comes up there, and Linda Carter, and you'll have any number of starlets saying that Wonder Woman is an empowering heroine and that's why they'll dress up as her at Halloween - but she lacks the oomph of Batman and Superman. When people talk about Superman, it isn't as an empowering icon to the Jews, or any of that. He's Superman. Similarly, Batman may be mocked by fans and casual observers for his backstory ( kid can't get over his dead parents, waah waah) but as the Bale movies have shown, people still feel strongly about the ultimate self-made superhero.

Without further adieu...

1. Origin story
It's too damn convoluted. So, she's a girl, and a USAF pilot is shot down, and she helps close the demongate, and that's where they get the American flag on her butt...but wait, there's Steve Trevor, and the Amazons are...defending the gate, no, they're hiding, I'm sorry, what?
Make it simple, make it resonate. That's why Superman and Batman work, it's why Spider-man works. Last survivor of a dead race. Saw his parents shot in front of his eyes as a child. One selfish moment allows a man to kill his uncle. People will tinker around the edges with all of the above but they don't change anything fundamentally. Diana's needs to be simplified and make it resonate emotionally.

2. Role/Mission
Make it clear what she's out here to do. And, importantly, LET HER DO IT. The one that I grew up with is the idea that she was a diplomat to Man's World, and it's the one that works best, so let's keep it, eh? Though I would remove the Man's World caveat. Don't make this a gender conflict, because Diana should rise above such pettiness and it goes into some troubling issues that a comic book hero should try to avoid in a play for iconic status. She's there to show the world another way out. It works especially in the Trinity - if you have Superman as Defender, Batman as Avenger, and Diana as Healer. While I admit that it's a bit of a stereotype to put the woman in that role, it's the one that she's been doing all her publication history, so don't change anything there. The alternative is Warrior, but then you have the warrior-chick stereotype, which while awesome in its place is not quite the ethos one should expound as a Superhero. That is why I like Cooke's Diana in New Frontier - she's not afraid to get her hands dirty but overall her purpose is one of peace and reconciliation.

3. The Amazons
This is the trickiest one, I feel. I remember bluefall positing that Amazons were Humanity 2.0, and that seems to be the intent of Marston. But there just is far too many problems with this view.
One, that means the Amazons are superior to us. Not just physically, but morally, ethically. I don't think many people are okay with the idea of a Superior Race.
Two, it gives something for writers to tear down. Writers are all about that. Krypton has undergone this. The Guardians have especially suffered from this. And the Amazons have been utterly destroyed by this several times over, to the point where you wonder how can there BE any Amazons. Find another way around this. Maybe they are there to help guide Man's World to Humanity 2.0? Have them represent emotional and religious zen? I don't know.
Three, gender war.

These are the three key things I think need to be addressed to make Wondy a true icon in her own right, with no caveats attached.

[psychop_rex.insanejournal.com]

While I partly agree with you, I think the main thing that is keeping Wondy down is the fact that nobody can agree on just precisely who she is; she's been kicked around like a football ever since her creation. In my mind, if you want to define just what Diana is about, you should go back to her roots, to the Marston era, and identify the themes that originate there - they have subsequently played out in various forms through her career. On that note, here's how I would address the three issues you have with the character...

1: Here's her origin story - Diana is the daughter of Queen Hippolyta, created from mud and given life by the gods. One day, after she has reached adulthood, the gods send word to the Amazons that a champion must be chosen from amongst them to help the world - subsequently, a sort of Amazon Olympics is staged to determine who it is to be. Against her mother's will, Diana disguises herself, takes part in and wins these trials; she then gets her costume and lasso, leaves Themyscira/Paradise Island, and becomes Wonder Woman. The rest - Steve Trevor, the costume design, etc. - is set dressing; it's there for the people who are already familiar with the character, not the one's who're just getting into her.

2: Her motivation is indeed a bit tricky, I'll grant you, but here's how I see it - in both Pre and Post-Crisis versions, she was sent from Themyscira to help the world - in the original version, she was sent because of WW2; in the later one, it was Ares getting up to tricks. In either case, she was sent to help us, and I think that's the important difference between her and her two foremost male colleagues, Superman and Batman. Superman is here to SAVE us, both in literal terms and in terms of the metaphorical messiah-figure issues that surround him. Saving people is what he does - when they're in terrible danger, he saves their lives. That's his classic formula - something bad happens, here's Superman to save the day. Batman, on the other hand, is here to FIGHT for us - he fights bad guys; that's what he does. His original origin story has him vowing to avenge his parent's deaths by 'warring on all criminals'; he spends his time prowling the rooftops, looking for crimes either in progress or about to happen - he doesn't so much save the innocent (although he does that, too, of course) as punish the guilty.
Wondy, on the other hand, is neither a saver nor a fighter - she is a helper. She is here to improve the lot of humankind, and all of her subsequent roles basically fit into this category. Whether she's helping us by punching out a bad guy, acting as an ambassador between her world and ours or giving helpful advice to a friend, she's still helping us, and all are of equal importance to her. She's the sort of person who would do volunteer work at a homeless shelter or try and act as arbitrator in a fight - her mission is to calm the waves, solve the puzzle, provide the solution. Whatever her precise role is at the moment, she's here to help.

3: I think the Amazons are not supposed to be superior to us so much as they are supposed to be enlightened compared to us - they're a sort of holy community like an ashram or monastery (literally, in their case, as they are blessed by the gods) who have achieved peace with the world through being apart from it, and attained a level of spiritual and moral purity that modern society has lost. I don't think that they're supposed to be inherently better than us, just a community with a viewpoint that would be of great value to us, were we to listen. They're not a Superior Race, they're an Enlightened Community.
I will agree that the amount of times writers have screwed around with this premise in recent years is appalling. I would view that, however, not so much as a problem with the premise as a problem with the current hey-gang-let's-blow-things-up style of writing and editorial mandate.