Discussion: Manga translation conventions

[ozaline]

"People who have heard me pontificate on translation before might know that I think the retention of honorifics that has become so common in manga translations is generally an unnecessary and even wrong-headed practice. In fact, after twenty years of professionally translating manga, I am hard pressed to recall a case in which I retained honorifics (without an editor holding a gun to my head). Retention of Japanese honorifics without good reason seems to me to be an affectation intended to make self described otaku feel part of an exclusive club that understands, for example, what the honorific "-chan" means.

In the case of Wandering Son, though, skipping over honorifics would not only make my job more difficult, but also completely close off the reader to an aspect of the work that is both important and intrinsically interesting. But if I'm going to retain honorifics, I'm going to do it right. So bear with me while I offer a glossary that is, I hope, more thorough and nuanced than the kind you'll find in most manga translations."

--Matt Thorn


So just thought I'd start up a discussion do you prefer honorifics retained in manga? Or do you think they should be localized. I for one prefer their retention, I feel manga in particular rely on honorifics a lot to convey a character's feelings in a way that can't be approximated in English. Especially true in a queer work like Wandering Son, but in many other works as well.

Bellow is an example from Kaguya-sama Love is War of a scene that would be hard to localize







The Viz version of Kaguya-sama actually does drop the honorifics, so this is gonna be hard for them to translate.





Also do you prefer that names be rendered into western order or left in Japanese order? Again I lean towards leaving them in Japanese order, for a few reasons. I've come across several instances where there's word play that only works if you maintain the original order, and I've also seen it used to build tension by making you think they're addressing one member of a family, only for it to be another one.

This example below from Mix: Meisei Story is not the strongest example, this could be done with Western order... but I couldn't find the exact trope I wanted at the moment.

Comments

[janegray]

I strongly prefer honorifics to be retained. Relationship upgrades rely heavily on switching from one honorific to a different one, or dropping them altogether, and that can be very awkward if you try and translate it into English.

For example, in one Lupin story where Fujiko loses her memory, the climax of the story is when she stops calling Lupin "Lupin-san" and goes back to just Lupin, signifying that She Is Back.

In the English version, amnesiac Fujiko calls Lupin "Mr. Lupin," and that moment is translated as her dropping the "Mr." But it's really awkward, because however polite you might be, what adult calls fellow adult teammates "Mr."?

Or, in Slam Dunk, there is a very funny scene where Hanamichi has a crush on a girl, and gets hilariously jealous when a guy calls her by her first name, and Hanamichi assumes he must be her boyfriend. Turns out he is her brother. How do you translate it without making it sound awkward? It's not like her brother is going to call her "honey" or "dear."

There are a lot of examples like that. Keep the honorifics, they do change the context.

[ozaline]

You can also use them for an awesome mic drop, like the end of the second episode of Utena, where (to Anthy) Saionji goes from Saionji-sama to Saionji ... ... senpai.

[locuatico]

Utena I feel is kind of special, since it is a deeply...artsy?.
It's a show that is very much intended for the reader to find meaning in pretty much every aspect. so I think the translations should keep as much of the original text as possible, even at the risk of getting the audience lost and confused.

[lego_joker]

Tangentially related, but I just hatched an idea of my own for the Lupin thing: as amnesiac, Fujiko pronounces it the "American" way (Loo-pin), and when She's Back, she pronounces it the "proper" way (Ru-pan).

(Also... Penguin called his adult teammates "Mister" in the Batman '66 movie, but I've got a feeling that's not exactly the parallel you're looking for.)

[alicemacher]

I understand what Thorn says about retention of honorifics giving translated manga an insular, "no non-otakus allowed" feel, although I think that's more a problem when a translation (generally a scanlation rather than an official one) leaves other, perfectly-translatable words untranslated ("Baka! You fell face-down on my boobs again," instead of "Idiot! You fell" etc.). Japanese honorifics in English may look awkward, but not nearly as awkward as some attempts I've seen (mostly in anime subs, mind) to provide English equivalents. A common offender is "Sir ______" for "______-san," as if the character being addressed were a British knight rather than a Japanese salaryman.

[janegray]

must... resist... urge... must...

"Just According to Keikaku*"

*Keikaku means plan

[ozaline]

I once saw an English fansubbed anime put a translator note on the English word farce, and give the dictionary definition.

[locuatico]

Personally, wether they retain it or not, what I care most of all is one thing: Consistency. If you retain the honorifics, you keep the honorifics whenever they show. If you remove them, you don't get to put them back.
Because I HATE when a translation (either fan transletion or official. they do this, too) decides to change it mid-series. I hate that I have to re-adjust my brain (as you can guess, I hated whenever I had to change fan translations)

After that... case by case.
I honestly don't mind if FMA drops the honorifics, since almost the entire cast is supposed to be european (except maybe Ishvalans, but you get my point. they weren't supposed to be read as japanese either). However, I think something very clearly set in japan (outside of High-school manga... say... a series set in medieval japan) should keep it, or at least keep the manner of speak as much as they can.
If the story relies heavily on relationships and that sort of thing? then yes, the honorifics are probably an important part of the story that are intended to pass on a meaning that would be lost otherwise.

Then there is certain words (Keikaku). Mostly... I think you should translate them... if the translated word sounds cool. Keikaku is ridiculous, but I will admit I preffer when One Piece keeps "Nakama" instead of "companion". Since I feel the literal meaning (ciompanion) is translated effortlesly and the intended meaning (that of friends so important to you, you are willing to declare war to the whole damn world for their sake) is also conveyed better than if it was translated.

Likewise, there are words for complicated concepts that just have no translation in other languages (not just in japan. most languages have at least one word that is untranslatable).
For example, I distinctly remember the 2003 adaption of Astro Boy kept the word "kokoro" as the thing that made robots like Astro special and why they were true AIs with the ability to grow, which would probably be really hard to convey otherwise.

"Senpai" is also a word I feel should be kept most times, even if you remove Kouhai, since it is a word that is easy to understand and conveys an important aspect of the relationship.

Translations should respect name order. I mean, if FMA can bother to have it's character's names by in the western order, I think the translation team can bother to keep the japanese order and assume the readers won't get confused (altough, if the story is set outside of japan, yes, go ahead and change to the western order).

In short, I don't think it is a matter of wether one is "better" or prefferable, but that those kind of changes should be done on a case by case basis, as with most translations.

That being said, I much preffer to hear "onii-chan" than "big Brother".

[ozaline]

I've never seen an anime or manga, set in the west that used Japanese order for western characters anyway. If anything I've seen them go a bit to far in using a person's personal name. The second Touch TV special has Uesugi on a independent baseball team in the states and all the other players are called by their first names so much that the movie didn't bother giving them last names. Despite the fact that the family name is typically what's on their jersey.

Also a lot of works set in the west already eschew most honorifics except maybe "-san," in which case they typically do use it as a stand in for Mr. or Ms. But there are exceptions.

and yes I prefer Oniisama, and Oneesama (and variants)... Except when a western character is all "Big brother," (like in Heroman).

The only problem with a case by case approach is now-a-days when Manga are often being translated in the very early stages of production it's hard to tell how important it'll end up being. Like I said the Kaguya-sama manga eschews it in official translation (despite them calling the title Kaguya-sama), and there's some direct musing on it in that scene above, and others.

But yeah in works that are heavily based on Western cultures if they still use them it's probably okay to drop 'em. Though to go to my favourite in Sakura Wars V which was set in New York they translated the non-binary and Japanese character's honorific as -san... which was pretty problematic. Since they are Japanese anyway leaving it untranslated would probably have been the best way to go.

[locuatico]

"I've never seen an anime or manga, set in the west that used Japanese order for western characters anyway."
Most don't. it's mostly fantasy series like One Piece that do. (Ironically, it would be too awkward to change One Piece's name order at this point)

I agree that it is probably very hard to do a case-by-case basis because of the reasons you mentioned. Mostly is how I, ideally, think you would need to do to define when an honorific is necessary and when you can skip it.
which is why I only ask for consistency. Maybe then do a re-do when translating the full volumes and you have a better grasp on how important the honorifics are.

When it is a western character, I say translate "Onii-chan" as anything other than "big brother", because it always sound awkward to me.

[ozaline]

Yeah Heroman was the first time I watched an anime and was like... "oh my god can we just have her call her brother by his name, this is kinda cringey."

[lilacsigil]

Keep the honorifics if it's set in Japan, otherwise case by case. Not because it's untranslatable (nothing is, though almost nothing is directly translatable either!) but because it's so much easier and more direct.

[wizardru]

I get what Thorn is saying, but I personally think it depends on the individual case.

In some anime/manga, those qualifiers convey information that is awkward to add in or is just lost. I can communicate interpersonal information with very little wordage that might be critical to retain if you want to keep the flavor of the original. On the other hand, some material gains or loses very literal from the dropping of them or can be compensated with very simple reworkings.

A talented localization team will now which is the right approach. I think the idea upthread of keeping the honorifics (and explaining them in a preface) is good, but keeping words like 'baka' for a professional translation? Not good.

[trobadora]

I don't know any Japanese, but people use "monsieur" in English-speaking media when it's supposed to be set in France, or in German-speaking media you often get "mister" in the relevant context, even though those are easily translated. I feel like if we can do that, we can keep Japanese honorifics, too. (Or Chinese ones, or any other, for that matter.)

An idle thought on this

[lego_joker]

English actually does have a pretty hefty set of honorifics and titles (mostly pilfered from other languages' pockets), but when spoken, they're usually expected to replace the addressee's name, not be appended to it.

"Doctor, is it serious?"
"Sir, if you'll just move along now..."
"Looks like someone cracked his head right open, Chief.."

Most of the time, adapting Japanese into that format isn't too tough, but there's always exceptions. Why the heck do manga and anime have everyone shouting everyone else's names every five minutes, anyhow...?

Re: An idle thought on this

[ozaline]

I'm not too sure about that... after all Japan also has titles that would be dropped in for "Sir" (at least in the context of a guest Okyaakyu-sama) "chief" (Taichou or Danchou)... and all the rest.

Also I don't think the name shouting is all that common in anime and manga, certain kinds of anime, and manga yes. Especially lovers, or rivals (Tamahome! Miaka!), but usually I think it's used the way other subject markers are in Japanese when it's necessary to make it clear who you're talking to, or about... or when they react t something happening to that person (in an action show or something).