Aquaman #65

[lordultimus]

Kelly Sue Deconnick: "For me, I didn’t understand how [monarchy could work with] these characters that represent these ideals, and particularly these very American ideals, right? DC characters are red, white, and blue, really. I know we are an international brand, but there is something about the values that are such American values. So, this idea that we have this undersea monarchy that’s always this continual battle for who’s owed the throne? No, that is not how that should work at all. That’s a moral issue. That’s wrong. And I think it’s a problem I have with a lot of contemporary fantasy... I really and truly believe this. I believe that Atlantis being a monarchy in 2020 was a problem. So, that was where we went with it. I don’t know if it will hold. That is not my job. But what felt authentic to me was that once Mera understood that, that she would have to act, because I think that’s who she is."

Comments

[deh_tommy]

I don’t know, Atlantis *isn’t* America and the ideals America prides thatself on goes way beyond their borders.

[bravest_spinja]

It's arguably not even Terrestrial.

Did Arthur and Mera even grow up in Atlantis in this continuity? Because otherwise swooping in and not just claiming power, but remaking statein the image of a foreign nation that you're from does kind of whiff of i*n*t*e*r*v*e*n*t*i*a*l*i*s*m.

[scorntx]

Arthur grew up on The Surface, raised by his father, not going to Atlantis till he was a teenager.
Mera's from Xebel, which is a break-off colony in another dimension, and didn't get to Atlantis until after her teens.

(Least, that was how it was in Johns' run. Which has probably been retconned since, knowing DC's current approach to continuity.)

[bravest_spinja]

Speaking from a symbolic perspective. Aquaman doesn't represent "American values", he represents The Sea. The Sea is brutal and alien and older than just about anything else. I don't think they would look at the way industrialized nations have ravaged the oceans and be particularly impressed by their systems of government.

Also, if the title character is still occupying a position in some kind parliamentary or senatorial duty, being a protagonist who solves his problems and moves the needle with a two-fisted force of personality does not make him effectively different from a monarch, or worse yet, a Warlord.

[silicondream]

DC characters are red, white, and blue, really. I know we are an international brand, but there is something about the values that are such American values.

Wow. If "factually wrong" and "marketing suicide" had a baby, these would be its first words.

I believe that Atlantis being a monarchy in 2020 was a problem.

Well of course it's a problem, Atlantis is riddled with problems. It's the fictional setting of a superhero story and the problems are what make it interesting. It's a problem that Gotham City is filled with political corruption, organized crime, and homicidally insane performing artists, but fixing that would not improve most Batman stories.

Personally, I vastly prefer a loosely-governed Atlantean empire that stretches across the seven seas, and includes a variety of sentient species with wildly different cultural values. What makes Aquaman cool is that he's the one person who can command respect and obedience from them all--and from sharks, and from giant squid, and from plankton. These are not beings that can participate in an idealized American democracy. They eat each other. Many of them have no actual brains. But they follow Arthur when he asks, because he's the one man alive who actually deserves to be a king.

[alliterator]

Wow. If "factually wrong" and "marketing suicide" had a baby, these would be its first words.

I mean, both Superman and Wonder Woman weren't born in America and yet they both fought for America during World War II and were portrayed in plenty of American propaganda. Diana even wears the red, white, and blue, despite the fact that she was born and raised in Themyscira.

Seems to me like the Golden Age DC characters, who were created by Americans during a war that American was joining, were infused with a lot of American values.

[silverhammerman]

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that I do actually agree with much of what DeConnick is saying. The stuff about American values is maybe a weird way of putting it and the pages above are a little silly (though there's surely a story to be had in drawing out that culture clash) but as a somewhat tiresome leftist I'm not huge on stories about cool, righteous monarchies in this day and age.

I'm not completely against stories about heroic kings and queens and so on, but if DC is going to continue to insist on treating Aquaman as Serious Business and doing lots of stories about political intrigue, easing up on the whole seemingly absolute monarchy angle is a good idea.

Moreover, as DeConnick also mentions, there sure have been a lot of recent Aquaman stories about competing claims for the crown and it's getting tiresome. If this ends up meaning that writers are less quick to jump to stories about Atlantean power struggles and instead have Aquaman hunt pirate treasure or just be a celebrity superhero for mermaids, I'll be absolutely okay with that change.

[redmagpie]

I mean as a British person I also think it's really weird how much media celebrates royal families. Like ALL media. But it is especially weird when america does it. Like you guys pretend you threw a revolution to get rid of them, right?
So yeah smash that monarchy good for you Atlantis.

[leahandillyana]

That's a really arrogant thing to say, Ms Deconnick. Monarchy is a crucial part of national identity in the countries it exists, and many people in the republics are nostalgic towards past monarchy. Representative parliamentarism and elections are an interesting idea in a multi-species society, but the king and queen, especially these particular royals recognised but all live in the oceans, should stay as symbolic heads of government, as in most existing monarchies. Aquaman has literary place as king of Atlantis, if he rejects that, he becomes... nothing. There are no more interesting tales to be tols about him. Even in Justice League adventures, Mera and Aqualad have more versalite and useful powers. Cultural imperialism, that's what I have to say about it.

[alliterator]

Aquaman has literary place as king of Atlantis, if he rejects that, he becomes... nothing. There are no more interesting tales to be tols about him.

Well, that's the wrongest thing I've read today and I've read some pretty wrong things.

Just because Aquaman isn't King of Atlantis doesn't make him not Aquaman anymore. Him rejecting the title -- a title he didn't want, one forced upon him, I might add -- makes him a better character in my opinion.

Monarchy is a crucial part of national identity in the countries it exists, and many people in the republics are nostalgic towards past monarchy.

Yes, I'm sure many people long for the days of serfs and the feudal system.

Or perhaps they are nostalgic for something that never actually existed, much like some Americans are nostalgic for an era that never existed. Saying "we shouldn't dismantle this fictional monarchy because some people in the real world are nostalgic about an era that never existed" is really a bad faith argument.

[leahandillyana]

In exact next bloody sentence I am talking about parliamentary monarchies. Your whole comment seems like bad faith reading of my comment.

[alliterator]

Except, again, Atlantis is NOT a parliamentary monarchy, it's an absolute monarchy, so your comment is still in bad faith.

[tcampbell1000]

Look, it's nice to see anybody who's unabashedly pro-democracy in this turbulent, demagogue-electing decade, but maybe there's a way to transform Atlantis from monarchy to a more representative form of government that doesn't involve a queen simply ordering her people to do it?

[servant_iskandar]

We already had Medusa doing so with the Inhumans, good observation.

It feels so rushed, and I cannot really understand - as others have pointed out - the logic of imposing one cultural view over another that's both fictional and immersed (pardon the pun) in a very different context, as it is with both DC's and Marvel's versions of Atlantis.

[janegray]

The older I get, the more I question the idea that democracy is automatically better than monarchy.

Admittedly, being governed by Silvio Berlusconi for 20 years, and hearing a ton of people still proudly proclaim they'd vote for him again because WAH WAH WAH FAKE NEWS (four years ago, when I said that Trumpism was just a more religious-inclined version of Berlusconism, I meant it), might possibly have made me a little cynical.

Just a tad.

(Just take a peek at his Wikipedia page. Go on. I dare you)

I hear stories like the one of the Queen of Hawaii, who took great care of her people, and then was overthrown by white people "bringing democracy" who then proceed to treat those people as shit. And it seems to me that the country would have been objectively better off with monarchy.

[servant_iskandar]

I guess the crux of the problem is that both government forms can work well, or at the very least not to the outright detriment of the people, when they're coupled with parliamentary systems *and* those systems represent the people.
Also, that the representatives themselves are capable of empathy rather than egotists, otherwise yes - you end up with people like Silvio and Don.

[cricharddavies]

As a certain subject of a monarch once said, "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time..."

Basically, all forms of government are vulnerable to the fact that they are practiced by short-lived and fallible human beings. Liliuokalani was probably an excellent queen, but there is no guarantee that whoever followed her would have been likewise excellent, and a reasonable bet that they would not. The main advantage to a republic, assuming that term limits are recognized, is that you can vote to throw the rascal out. The main disadvantage is that there's no guarantee that enough people will agree to do so.

[janegray]

Basically, all forms of government are vulnerable to the fact that they are practiced by short-lived and fallible human beings.

Sure. But that's never how it's presented in fiction. Democracy is always treated as automatically objectively morally superior, regardless of circumstances.

[servant_iskandar]

Depending on the writer, they might be looking at democracy as an ideal (without even understanding it fully) rather than at its historical actualization, Jane.

And the use of the voting system to elect - and dismiss/repeal - your "rulers" should be an improvement compared to dynastic systems, however tempered by other measures/government bodies.

Naturally, it doesn't mean that it cannot be twisted or poisoned, a fact that's apparent even in comics...

[cricharddavies]

Eh ... always is a strong word. Middle-earth isn't democratic, though the people of Gondor are shown to approve of the Return of the King. And the whole 'rightful king' myth shows up in lots of fantasy inspired by that. There's also the science fiction of David Weber, which has been called embarrassingly pro-monarchy.

[gnarll]

Well, I think you could make a fairly strong argument that constitutional monarchies outperform republics in serving the needs of their people. There are far fewer constitutional monarchies than republics, and they are still half the top 10 on HDI and a majority of the top 20.

[leahandillyana]

There's a need to introduce mechanisms protecting democracies from authoritarian leanings, because when a government openly attacking women, LGBT+ people, teachers, doctors, nurses and environmentalists still has over 50% popular support, it means that democracy has failed the country.

[alliterator]

Monarchy only works if you get someone really good in charge who knows what they are doing, much like democracy. And considering monarchy is usually for life and passed down hereditarily, there's a much better chance of someone good (or at least decent) being elected, rather than born into the role. It doesn't always work, but it works more than most.

Like Churchill said, “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

[shakalooloo]

I dunno, doesn't the President of the US have more control over their country than the British monarch has over theirs? Less oversight, more powers? Not an absolute ruler, no, but certainly far above what a true democracy should hand to any singular person.

"But what felt authentic to me was that once Mera understood that, that she would have to act, because I think that’s who she is."

Has Mera shown any doubt over the divine right of kings in the past? Or is this just a case of a character only being 'authentic' in so far as the author wrote them to be so?

[servant_iskandar]

IMHO, it's the latter.
DeConnick herself says it, and quite transparently at that - "because I think that's hwo she is".

As others have noted, there are various applications of "monarchy" and you can have kings and queens and their ilks running around alongside a Parliament and a Constitution.

What used to separate a constitutional monarchy from a parliamentary republic is the concept that the citizens are granted privileges rather than rights, and privileges can be revoked, whereas fundamental rights should be unalienable.

Nowadays however, you could say a number of monarchies are actually republics with a King as the head of state.

[bradygirl_12]

I love the Atlantean construction equipment! :)

[lbd_nytetrayn]

I'm reminded a little of pre-reboot Archie Sonic here.

[gnarll]

This smells like cultural imperialism. Its almost 1800s in how unashamed it is.

[servant_iskandar]

It's weird at the very least, given that we live in a multicultural world and that there are several "success stories" (as you yourself correctly pointed out) of costitutional monarchies doing right both for their people and the development of the territories they rule over.

DeConnick cites the fights for the throne as a reason, but power struggles can happen regardless of the political system you're in. Heck, takeover is corporate jargon these days, and it largely comes from US culture, not Sweden or even the British Isles.

So yes, her statement reeks a bit too much of manifest destiny to be entirely palatable to me, and the "Ooh! This is so much better!" imagery/narrative we see in these featured panels seems ready made to prop the author's viewpoint.

Since the issue appeared to be one of realism, I'd have liked a more realistic approach. And living in Italy, I get enough of this kind tripe already from folks like Salvini and Meloni (as in, it's always the others who need to adopt our view of the world). I'd rather not be forced to bundle DeConnick with the likes of them...

[alliterator]

You keep talking about "constitutional monarchies" or, rather, the Monarchy That Atlantis is Not. Atlantis was an absolute monarchy and the King ruled by divine right, rather than the right of the people.

Much like Wakanda was an absolute monarchy which changed over into a constitutional monarchy (complete with parliament), Atlantis switching over to a more democratic rule where the people get a say on how they are ruled should be seen as a good thing. Or else you could get King Orm the Tyrant.

[servant_iskandar]

TBH, my beef is with the premise behind this.

I'll be clear: I think becoming a Republic has been one of the greatest gifts my Country - Italy - could ever hope for after the years of the Second World War and before that, the dark age of fascism. While we are vastly behind the potential our Constitution embodies, while we've been vastly imperfect in applying it, I believe in democracy and participation. I want my vote to count. I want to be able to choose and, if necessary, repeal my representatives.

But I wouldn't assume that my experience, or feelings about what being a democracy here is about, are adequate representation of other Countries with similar systems, even if it's just our close neighbours (France).

What is wrong with DeConnick's statement, at least IMHO, is that she isn't simply proceeding from the ideal standpoint you maintain, but that she's making a clear comparison with the US and the US systems. It's not just talking from experience but rather american-izing (flanderizing, if you will) the concept.

It takes away from what could have been an otherwise interesting development, and the scenes that follow feel like self-fulfillment rather than an organic development, again IMHO.

And as I pointed out before - it's been done before (see Ewing's mini with the Inhumans, for one, and you've quoted Wakanda's case) and usually, again in my opinion, better.

[alliterator]

Did you read the entire interview or just the bit posted? Because she goes into a bit more about why she did what she did:

"Game of Thrones, in the end, the thesis, what does Game of Thrones seem to be telling us? 'You’re pretty much born who you are, and you’re the crazy fire lady. You’re going to be the crazy fire lady.' You know what I mean? It was all about what was owed by birth. And some of the stuff they have done with Star Wars, too [referring to Rey's power originating in her bloodline]. I happened to be listening to a thing about Ben Franklin this evening as research for another project, and a line jumped out at me. Professor H.W. Brands makes reference to '...the dawning of a world in which an individual’s ability, not his birthright, would be the yardstick by which his success might be measured.' I think that's what I was trying to get to. Something beyond both birthright and biology.

"I really and truly believe this. I believe that Atlantis being a monarchy in 2020 was a problem. So, that was where we went with it. I don’t know if it will hold. That is not my job. But what felt authentic to me was that once Mera understood that, that she would have to act, because I think that’s who she is."

DeConnick's statement isn't that the US is the best at democracy -- far from it -- it's that the monarchy system Atlantis uses (as well as a lot of contemporary fantasy) is inherently bad because it posits the heroes deserve to rule (or even "are heroic") because they were born in a certain family, not because of anything else. Bloodlines = bad, essentially.

[donnblake]

Pondering the vagaries of democracy in my own country, I'm sometimes minded towards the belief that the point of representative democracy isn't so much to pick the best individual for the office (you may insert your favorite example here of when it has failed to do so), but as a generating legitimacy in a culture that's not minded to accept, for instance, the divine right of kings.

Of course, in the past two hundred years, my country has assassinated four of its presidents and fought one full scale civil war so it's not like it's batting a thousand at that either.

[leahandillyana]

Two out of nine presidents my country has had died tragically, making the job the most dangerous one in Poland.