Ben Grimm Ain't Kosher

[shakalooloo]

One panel from Fantastic Four #40 (legacy 680). All this Reckoning nonsense going on, but this is the one thing I took home from the issue:

Comments

[blueprintstyles]

the kids could be having pork chops and he could be having something else, maybe?

[donnblake]

I mean, some Jewish people aren't, but yeah, this feels like a clumsy touch.

[onsokumaru]

Here is Dan Slott adressing that:

Q: Isn't Ben Grimm Jewish.

A: Yes.

Q: Why is he looking forward to pork chops in Fantastic Four #40?

A: Because he likes pork chops. Like myself, not all Jews keep kosher.

[jgraygaming]

Given everything else we know about Ben, he's probably Reform and not Orthodox (and certainly not Ultra-Orthodox). In general, the Reform movement tends to view kosher laws as non-binding. Some will follow them, some will follow them on specific holidays (kosher for Passover, for example, is different from kosher in general), some will follow them at home but not when eating out, and some don't follow them at all.

Like all marginalized groups, Jews aren't a monolith.

[agharta75]

Though Ben has gone back a bit to his roots recently, he's never been particularly religious and definitely not full kosher.

[mazway_75]

That was addressed in the old Infinity Crusade bit where Ben relates he didn't fall for "The Goddess" thrall because he lost a lot of his faith after a relative died when he was a kid. So I can accept he's not serious about a lot of the faith.

[zachbeacon]

Though dying and finding out God (Jack Kirby) really did create you in his own image in the Waid run is bound to be a pretty significant experience.

[thezmage]

It didn't stop Reed from being an atheist though

[zachbeacon]

That take on Reed (and Batman too) always bothered me. Franklin was once kidnapped by literal demons. He hired an actual witch as a nanny. He was in a secret society with Doctor Strange.

"No, its just science I can't explain. Also I won't investigate it despite intellectual curiosity being one of my primary character traits"

Its pretty rare that I think of Tony Stark as relatable but I totally get Iron Man meeting Thor and reevaluating his previous beliefs. I'd probably never eat another burger again if I had Vishnu's cell phone number.

[blues32]

Reed tried to study magic once. He couldn't wrap his head around it. It bent the rules too much. After studying magic, Reed concluded it was something he could never hope to understand, even if he acknowledged its existence.

[blues32]

Which is a total jerk move. God fixed his scarred face with an eraser and he's going to be an atheist? If I had a friend resurrected in front of me by a short old Jewish man using a pencil, I'd convert then and there.

[shakalooloo]

Any random Celestial, Watcher or Elder of the Universe could have done the same thing if they'd wanted.

Given the phenomonal power levels of some of the beings Reed meets - Hell, his own son created an entire universe! - I can't think what display it would take to make him believe in a god.

[blues32]

And what do you think that makes Franklin? What do you think a god is?

[shakalooloo]

It's not what I think Franklin is that counts, only what Reed thinks he is. He is not going to join a religion worshipping his son. There is nothing divine in his origins, only the effect of cosmic radiation. Science!

Reed acknowledges that creatures with 'god-like' powers exist, but does not feel any need to worship them.

[blues32]

Doesn't make them less than gods. Thor is a god, no matter whether a person worships him or not.

[shakalooloo]

They may be gods, but Reed Richards is not going to subscribe to their religion. That is all this discussion was about, wasn't it? How can Reed be an atheist when gods exist?

The difference between a 'god' and a super-powerful alien being is super fuzzy. Is the Impossible Man a god? He can certainly achieve more traditionally god-like feats than Thor.

[thezmage]

No, Reed has outright said that gods and afterlives didn't exist.

[shakalooloo]

Not 'gods' and 'afterlives' as mysterious, unknowable things that religions speak of. Mega-powerful alien forces and other worlds and dimensions that can be travelled to and from just like other planets.

What another might regard with superstition, he sees as science. It is the labelling of such phenomena that he disparages.

[thezmage]

I don't know what to tell you, he was outright denying the existence of things he had experienced firsthand

[blues32]

Atheists dismiss the concept of gods outright. In a world where every religion seems to be correct on some level, it seems absurd to do so.

And I would say Impossible Man is a god if he could actually change his colors.

[shakalooloo]

So Impossible Man isn't a god because he has a limitation?

[blues32]

Because he has a silly limitation. Can't even become a different shade of green.

[zachbeacon]

I never understood why so many of us think one group of people should rigidly stick to their religious teachings while we figure its the norm for others to use them as "general guidelines" (assuming they don't ignore them outright).

[donnblake]

A fair point- and it's not as though Ben's religion has been as important to him as, say, Daredevil's, and I probably wouldn't think twice if I saw Matt Murdock eating a burger on a Friday or something.

[zachbeacon]

I was talking more about the self-proclaimed "Christians" I see every day who do all kinds of mental gymnastics to rationalize greed or hate or whatever. But heaven forbid they see a Muslim with alcohol.

Daredevil is a good example of someone who is at least struggling with who he is and who he aspires to be.

(Though I'm pretty sure he gives up Hope for lent)

The thing with Ben is ... we all knew he was based off Kirby (a Jewish man) but they'd done so little with his faith that a lot of people accused Slott of making it up when it became a plot point in his Thing series. Now Slott isn't making Ben "Jewish enough". There's just no winning sometimes.

[shakalooloo]

Oh, I wasn't complaining that he's not Jewish enough, it was just the first time that I can think of that it's been addressed one way or the other.

It's refreshing that 'the Jewish one' here isn't a total steretype.

[zachbeacon]

Fair enough. It just feels like I've seen that kind of reaction to Slott's Ben before and I'm not sure some realize Slott is a big part of why religion has become a bigger part of Ben's character.

I think Slott is all over the place as a writer and I have criticisms of this run (especially related to Franklin and Johnny)* but he's one of the better Thing writers. Admittedly only one name springs to mind when I think of people who can't write the Thing so I have to assume most comic writers get what he's about.

*Seriously, why does EVERY F4 writer hit the reset button on the Human Torch?

[shakalooloo]

Johnny always gets the sort of subtle growth that a new writer can quickly roll back. Has anyone ever ended a run with Johnny having made a serious, defining change?

[blues32]

I mean...he used to have really limited powers. They'd die out pretty quick. So...there's a change.

[bruinsfan]

I'm pretty sure Ben has showed appreciation of cheeseburgers way back in the past, and those aren't kosher either, right?

[shakalooloo]

I'm ignorant enough of kosher rules that I didn't know they weren't kosher.

This line stood out to me merely as - for a moment - it seemed like Ben Grimm had been posssessed by Homer Simpson. I can't read 'pork chops' without hearing it in his voice!

[alliterator]

Lots of Jews don't keep kosher. Hell, I'm Jewish, my whole family is Jewish, and we've never kept kosher. I love a good cheeseburger.

[blues32]

I could SWEAR he's insisted on going kosher before. Maybe that was just for a holiday.

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Maybe he was just insisting on buying kosher-quality meat?

[jgraygaming]

Some Jews who don't keep kosher will go kosher for Passover.

[blues32]

I would hope so. Celebrating a Jewish holiday without taking the extra step to stay kosher seems...improper. It's like being a dick to people on Christmas. You really shouldn't do it or you get visited by ghosts...one of which is really rude and points at everything.

[has_green_skin]

Of course Ben isn't kosher. He doesn't have split hooves and chew cud.