![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
As we've seen with the debates with this post...
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2972745.html
...there's a bit of controversy regarding the direction of the Bat books. Some object to Bruce not being a loner. What's with these groups and others wearing the Bat symbol? What's with people looking to Batman as an inspiration when he's just supposed to scare the crap out of everybody, good and evil aike? Bruce publicly funding superheroes? What's with that candle swearing ceremony thing?
They all date back decades, in some cases almost as long as Batman has existed.
A look back...
Batman: Created by Bob Kane, not Frank Miller
In the mid-1980s, DC restarted their Universe with Crisis on Infinite Earths, which re-defined the DCU for the Iron Age of Comics. As various characters and series were subsequently rebooted, decades worth of history was thrown out. Batman was redefined by Frank Miller. This Grimdark paranoid constantly angry version was very popular, and would be Batman for the next 20 years.
Then, the Iron Age ended. And, like CoIE, the DCU would be redefined for the new era with a big event, Infinite Crisis. The biggest change was acknowledging that these characters had been around for more than two decades. Frank Miller's Batman was no longer seen as the one and only possible take on the character. There was a rich history that pre-dated Miller, and it could now be drawn on.
What we're seeing now comes from the Golden, Silver, Bronze, and, yes, even the Iron Ages.
Batman as inspiration
But, some argue, Batman is all about fear, not inspiring people to help others and make the world a better place. Well, let's look at Batman's origin...


Later, we'd learn he'd fallen into what became the Batcave at an early age, where he first saw the bats. Oh, and note the candle when the young Bruce is making his promise.
He shortly took a child under his wing who had also lost his parents to criminals. We'll be getting into him in a bit...
But, one's parents don't have to be murdered to create a traumatic childhood. Sometimes, living parents provide the trauma. And one destined to become a Bat finds their inspiration...



Hmm... I think we also see why Steph's so fond of Kara. :)
Then there's Kate, whose childhood trauma was the murder of her mother and, so she thought, her twin sister. She intended to dedicate her life to protecting others by serving in the military like her parents, but her sexual orientation ended that. Then, one night...



Kate explains...

So, yes, striking fear into the hearts of criminals. But, he also inspires others to take up his cause, to make the world a better place. The Bat symbol only represents terror to those who deserve it. To others, it represents the light fighting back the darkness.
Robins, Batgirls, and others
There are those that argue that having help "devalues" Batman, that he's best as a Grimdark Loner, like he used to be. Because, you know, he was a Grimdark Loner for such a long time...

A whole year, he went without help. One year out of his 72 year history. But those 71 years don't count, right?
Even Frank Miller thought he needed a Robin. And he gave him an especially cute one.

Aside from providing back-up and, if need be, rescue, Robin keeps Batman human.
Over the years, the Batman Family grew...


OK, but going international, uniting people from around the world that he inspired, and leading them in this Club of Heroes? Where did Morrison come up with that crazy idea?


Well, OK, fine, but that was the Golden Age. It's not like there were spin-off teams during the glorious Grimdark Iron Age...


All Batman Inc really is is taking the groups that have been there for years; the Batman Family, the Club of Heroes, the Outsiders, and the Birds of Prey; and giving them a central organizaton. Makes sense, really.
But, why does Bruce think he needs to train people? It takes away from his coolness, some argue, if he's not fighting the good fight, alone. We'll let Bruce, himself, explain...


These people he's inspired took this task upon themselves. They chose to do this, with or without Bruce's help. So, by training them, he not only has help, not only has people to continue the fight once he's gone, but he makes sure they know what they're doing.
Batman isn't a psycho taking out his rage on his targets, as some would like him to be. Yes, the deaths of his parents inspired him. It inspired him to try to make the world a better place. Bruce does more than fight crime. The Wayne Foundation helps operate free clinics, schools, orphanages, soup kitchens, and the arts.
But, what about publicly financing and backing a superhero group? Well, this isn't the first time. There's this other group. You may have heard of them...

What? No, I do not just use any excuse to post a George Perez drawing of Diana. It just... illustrated my point is all. Beautifully. Sigh... Um, where was I?
Oh yeah... Financing Batman Inc won't make Bruce any more a target than he already is. Lex Luthor, during the Bruce Wayne: Fugitive arc, was out to destroy Bruce, not Batman.
The candle ceremony
Someone in the other thread described swearing new members in with a candle as like a religious cult. This dates way back. Remember, it was with a candle lit that the young Bruce swore to avenge the deaths of his parents and dedicated his life to his cause.
Then, a few issues later, came this...

We didn't see this ceremony again until recently, when Barbara decided to revive it...




Barbara's narration, explanation, and, most importantly, the shopkeeper's expression pretty much say it all.
Sticking to the Iron Age approach in 2011 would have been about as good an idea as sticking to the Bronze Age approach would have been in 1986, or sticking to the Silver Age approach would have been in 1971. Times change, and Batman has always changed with them, reflecting the era. However, he's always retained the core of what makes him Batman. And, he'll continue to do so.
Scans from Detective Comics #33, 38, 859, 860; Secret Origins 80 Page Giant #1, The Dark Knight Returns #2, Robin #92, Justice League of America #200, and Batgirl v3 #3
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2972745.html
...there's a bit of controversy regarding the direction of the Bat books. Some object to Bruce not being a loner. What's with these groups and others wearing the Bat symbol? What's with people looking to Batman as an inspiration when he's just supposed to scare the crap out of everybody, good and evil aike? Bruce publicly funding superheroes? What's with that candle swearing ceremony thing?
They all date back decades, in some cases almost as long as Batman has existed.
A look back...
Batman: Created by Bob Kane, not Frank Miller
In the mid-1980s, DC restarted their Universe with Crisis on Infinite Earths, which re-defined the DCU for the Iron Age of Comics. As various characters and series were subsequently rebooted, decades worth of history was thrown out. Batman was redefined by Frank Miller. This Grimdark paranoid constantly angry version was very popular, and would be Batman for the next 20 years.
Then, the Iron Age ended. And, like CoIE, the DCU would be redefined for the new era with a big event, Infinite Crisis. The biggest change was acknowledging that these characters had been around for more than two decades. Frank Miller's Batman was no longer seen as the one and only possible take on the character. There was a rich history that pre-dated Miller, and it could now be drawn on.
What we're seeing now comes from the Golden, Silver, Bronze, and, yes, even the Iron Ages.
Batman as inspiration
But, some argue, Batman is all about fear, not inspiring people to help others and make the world a better place. Well, let's look at Batman's origin...


Later, we'd learn he'd fallen into what became the Batcave at an early age, where he first saw the bats. Oh, and note the candle when the young Bruce is making his promise.
He shortly took a child under his wing who had also lost his parents to criminals. We'll be getting into him in a bit...
But, one's parents don't have to be murdered to create a traumatic childhood. Sometimes, living parents provide the trauma. And one destined to become a Bat finds their inspiration...



Hmm... I think we also see why Steph's so fond of Kara. :)
Then there's Kate, whose childhood trauma was the murder of her mother and, so she thought, her twin sister. She intended to dedicate her life to protecting others by serving in the military like her parents, but her sexual orientation ended that. Then, one night...



Kate explains...

So, yes, striking fear into the hearts of criminals. But, he also inspires others to take up his cause, to make the world a better place. The Bat symbol only represents terror to those who deserve it. To others, it represents the light fighting back the darkness.
Robins, Batgirls, and others
There are those that argue that having help "devalues" Batman, that he's best as a Grimdark Loner, like he used to be. Because, you know, he was a Grimdark Loner for such a long time...

A whole year, he went without help. One year out of his 72 year history. But those 71 years don't count, right?
Even Frank Miller thought he needed a Robin. And he gave him an especially cute one.

Aside from providing back-up and, if need be, rescue, Robin keeps Batman human.
Over the years, the Batman Family grew...


OK, but going international, uniting people from around the world that he inspired, and leading them in this Club of Heroes? Where did Morrison come up with that crazy idea?


Well, OK, fine, but that was the Golden Age. It's not like there were spin-off teams during the glorious Grimdark Iron Age...


All Batman Inc really is is taking the groups that have been there for years; the Batman Family, the Club of Heroes, the Outsiders, and the Birds of Prey; and giving them a central organizaton. Makes sense, really.
But, why does Bruce think he needs to train people? It takes away from his coolness, some argue, if he's not fighting the good fight, alone. We'll let Bruce, himself, explain...


These people he's inspired took this task upon themselves. They chose to do this, with or without Bruce's help. So, by training them, he not only has help, not only has people to continue the fight once he's gone, but he makes sure they know what they're doing.
Batman isn't a psycho taking out his rage on his targets, as some would like him to be. Yes, the deaths of his parents inspired him. It inspired him to try to make the world a better place. Bruce does more than fight crime. The Wayne Foundation helps operate free clinics, schools, orphanages, soup kitchens, and the arts.
But, what about publicly financing and backing a superhero group? Well, this isn't the first time. There's this other group. You may have heard of them...

What? No, I do not just use any excuse to post a George Perez drawing of Diana. It just... illustrated my point is all. Beautifully. Sigh... Um, where was I?
Oh yeah... Financing Batman Inc won't make Bruce any more a target than he already is. Lex Luthor, during the Bruce Wayne: Fugitive arc, was out to destroy Bruce, not Batman.
The candle ceremony
Someone in the other thread described swearing new members in with a candle as like a religious cult. This dates way back. Remember, it was with a candle lit that the young Bruce swore to avenge the deaths of his parents and dedicated his life to his cause.
Then, a few issues later, came this...

We didn't see this ceremony again until recently, when Barbara decided to revive it...




Barbara's narration, explanation, and, most importantly, the shopkeeper's expression pretty much say it all.
Sticking to the Iron Age approach in 2011 would have been about as good an idea as sticking to the Bronze Age approach would have been in 1986, or sticking to the Silver Age approach would have been in 1971. Times change, and Batman has always changed with them, reflecting the era. However, he's always retained the core of what makes him Batman. And, he'll continue to do so.
Scans from Detective Comics #33, 38, 859, 860; Secret Origins 80 Page Giant #1, The Dark Knight Returns #2, Robin #92, Justice League of America #200, and Batgirl v3 #3
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 02:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 09:30 am (UTC)I think Morrison's made a nice big stride in making Bruce less of an asshole and more friendly to those around him - I've always said the biggest sin of the 2000's Batman stories is that Bruce starts treating his friends almost as badly as he treats criminals - But with the exception of that brief period between War Games and IC, he's always had friends and a support network. Gotham's a big enough place that he can easily operate alone, some nights.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 02:50 am (UTC)I'm fairly procorporate and all (you can take the girl out of Wharton, but you can't take the Wharton out of the girl) but again there is an ick factor to this. And I've said before when looking at this storyline, this idea (Batman Inc) is being either set up to fail or fundamentally change some of the characters (my money is on Dick and also on Bruce).
Original, no. But there's a twist here, something that is different, that may make it a good story... at least I hope so. I'm really trying to like this book.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 03:11 am (UTC)One more thing
Date: 2011-05-13 03:14 am (UTC)Re: One more thing
From:Re: One more thing
From:no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 03:29 am (UTC)And, the nicer Batman was Batman for the first 47 years of his existence. The Grimdark Batdick isn't the One True Batman. Yeah, Frank Miller told a couple of great Batman stories, but that doesn't make him the end all and be all with how the character can be portrayed. There was almost half a century of Batman before Frank Miller.
And this is coming from a big fan of DKR and B:Y1.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:my pov
Date: 2011-05-13 03:52 am (UTC)I hate Batman making guest appearences outside of Gotham.
I hate the idea of a “Batfamily”
I DESPISE the idea of Batman being on the Justice League.
I cherish the idea that Batman is forever unable to maintain close relationships due to his psyche and his tireless crusade. I love Alfred, the wise butler who many times keeps Bruce sane. I love Bruce's interactions with Robin, how he saw him as an extension of his younger self. In other ways both alfred and robin play the role of Doctor Watson, offering crucial advice and being a set of ears to listen to Bat's theories.
I dislike this new bat inc arc in the same way i dislike what Oracle has become. The idea that in case of trouble for bruce a team of batmen, batbomb, or some other deus ex machina is really offsetting.
I miss the days when Batman was a detective, investigating crimes with naught but a wise butler, a young partner learning from his mentor and his own courage.
Re: my pov
Date: 2011-05-13 04:18 am (UTC)1954: Began teaming regularly with Superman.
1956: Original Batwoman introduced.
1960: Founding member of Justice League.
It's really been that long.
Re: my pov
From:Re: my pov
Date: 2011-05-13 06:07 pm (UTC)I was really, really annoyed when I tried to pick up a Batman comic after years not reading (was it the late 90s or early 00s, maybe?) and Batman was suddenly an "urban legend" and much more of a loner, which didn't make any sense at all to me. It was irritating enough that I decided I didn't want to read Batman after all, and it's only in the past couple of years that I've reacquainted myself with the Bat characters (and sites like this one have been invaluable to catching up on the years of missed).
Re: my pov
From:Re: my pov
From:Re: my pov
Date: 2011-05-13 06:20 pm (UTC)Don't these sentences contradict each other?
I will say that I miss the detective stories, but I don't think the current status quo necessarily prevents them from being told; more like the state of the comic book world as a whole these days.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 04:35 am (UTC)I'm not saying one version is better than the other (I think both unallied-isolated-Bats and surrounded-by-allies-Bats are interesting), just that Batman's loner personality isn't really tied to how many associates he has.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 04:49 am (UTC)But, again, the Batdick who doesn't have friends and family, only agents and allies, was a creation of the 1990s. This is a character that had decades worth of history before then.
For the first 50 years of his existence, he had friends and family.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 05:12 am (UTC)His thesis was that Batman Inc. is a natural extension of the inherent purpose of the Batman identity: to be bigger than Bruce Wayne, to be bigger than any one person, in a self-perpetuating cycle of people being inspired to heroism through the symbol of the bat.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 05:26 am (UTC)And yes, I've reached the point where I can't end a sentence with the word "forever" without thinking of this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSIjrk8FHhA
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 05:58 am (UTC)Seriousy though, great post. Good intro to the bat family for those who aren't too keen on it... though it might not hurt to have Jason, Cass, Barbara and even Damian moments there to make it comprehensive. Still, very nice.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 06:27 am (UTC)It was getting a bit long, already. Plus, I'm saving a lot of Babs, Cass, and Steph scans for a tongue in cheek post on why Misfit could never be Batgirl.
And thanks.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 08:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 11:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 12:06 pm (UTC)...
I always been a big fan of the Bat-clan, so I kinda already accepted the idea of "Batman Incorporated".
I know haters' gonna hate..but it is a pretty natural as far as story progression goes. You know some fanboys are already wishing it to be retconned and whatnot, but it is a solid concept at heart.
On the other hand, Bruce Wayne's actions aren't that far from Max and the JLI "back in the BWAHAHA-day".
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 05:56 pm (UTC)Hmm, wonder if that's what BQM was talking about when he mentioned Beetles in Steph's future? That team would be a good fit for her. If so, I wonder who the subject will be when she and Jaime revive the "One punch!" scene.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 12:44 pm (UTC)Then cop 3 days, -I- saw Batman rescue two orphans from the street and help them find a home. And he cried.
And cops 1 and 2 say MAN BULLSHIT.
End of comic, Batman checking in on 2 kids asleep in their bed.
The point? Batman IS a loner. He is a grim, dark knight crusader millar nolan cocktail of testosterone, hate, and misery. He is brusque with his friends and can be thoughtless of the feelings of those close to him.
But he is also mindful of his faults. He is sincere, he is sympathetic, he is capable of empathy and he only wants to spare people misery and bring some hope and happyness to this world.
He's Santa Claus with a Chainsaw, The Easter Bunny with a shotgun. Jesus the Vampire.
Batmans all of those things. Infact, I might post scans of that issue- i'm arse at html though, can uh...anyone explain how to insert a cut into a post? >_>;
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 06:02 pm (UTC)< lj-cut >
At the end...
< / lj-cut >
Just remove the spaces.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 01:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 05:49 pm (UTC)When BQM revived the candle ceremony for Steph, someone here complained that that was Dick's unique thing. But, it would seem, Morrison liked it.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-13 05:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-14 05:04 am (UTC)When you're a "normal human" (yes yes I know that from a metatextual perspective none of the Bats are anymore human that Captain America is, if not markedly less so but thats the line given so let's run with it), amongst people who can literally singlehandedly lift buildings, it makes sense to have plans to take down team mates who have gone rogue especially when someone gets mind controlled/possessed/brainwashed roughly once a month. Comparatively speaking if Batman gets mind controlled/possessed none of his team mates need a plan to take him down, the condition itself disables his strengths, so taking him down is trivial for his teammates, no plan needed. He's just putting himself in the same position of being able to defend himself and (and this is an important point) his friends/comrades/allies. Now the Brother Eye thing was going to far but its not like he didn't have a reason to distrust metahumans at that point, he had his mind which is his greatest strength violated (and for a reason that was basically, "Hey its more convenient for us if we mess up your head!").
The issue of Superman/Batman where Superman basically gave Batman a piece of kryptonite basically makes the point that Superman at least understands the reason why Bruce keeps these plans around and why its a good idea.
no subject
Date: 2011-06-07 08:21 am (UTC)