WWwA update, and Diana's take on 24

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

Look, pretty Diana!



For those who're interested, Chapter 17 of When Wondy was Awesome (in which Veronica Cale is Not A Nice Person and Diana writes a book) is now up at my journal. I can't put it here, because while each individual chapter is actually not so bad, the Rucka set as a whole is in flagrant violation of the 1/3 rule, and there was no way I could trim it down from the 1/2 issue format of our old LJ incarnation without shredding it. But it's good stuff, so go over there anyway. ^_^

Offered, for once, without comment.

From Rucka:




From Simone:

Comments

[batcookies.insanejournal.com]

Threatening torture?

She'd already cut Cheetah's face to get her point across.

Even if she stopped right there, she's already wounded a captured and defenseless Cheetah in order to get Cheetah to talk. The torture already started.

And I'm okay with that. I do think it's a remarkably dangerous "slippery slope" but many things heroes do fall into that category. I think most of the time things we call "torture" are unjustified, and unlikely to yield results anyway.

But I do allow for common sense, and I think it would be a poor stance for the "Avatar of Truth" to take, saying it's cut and dry/black and white. The truth of the matter is that things get complicated out there.

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

I dunno, if you're going to count a superficial cut to the face as torture, you have to start counting things like Dinah punching Ollie off his feet or Bruce smacking the Cluemaster upside the head to keep him moving as torture, too. Minerva isn't even hurt by that, her only response is a big ole indignant WTF; Bruce breaking a guy's nose in a fight is more damage and more excessive than Diana cutting Minerva's face here.

(And Minerva's hardly either captured or defenseless. I still can't buy for even a second that that flimsy-ass coil of rebar could hold her in any meaningful restraint. Admittedly, though, that's probably either a writing oversight or a penciller failure, rather than an intentional indication of something more subtle in Diana's comprehension of the situation or Cheetah's behavior, so it's probably not relevant to the conversation.)

[batcookies.insanejournal.com]

The difference is that those things are not done with the intent of using the pain to coerce the prisoner into giving up information.

Batman uses psychological torture the whole time (and honestly, how much difference is there between waterboarding and dropping a guy off a bridge then grabbing him at the last minute?)

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

Torture's not always about getting information. It can be about asserting dominance, instilling fear, coercing a particular behavior, or simply an exercise in sadism. Breaking a guy's fingers because he failed to come up with the money he owed you isn't going to get you information, but that doesn't make it any less torture. Beating and raping the new inmate because he needs to know he's at the bottom of the totem pole isn't going to get you information, but that doesn't make it any less torture. Branding the uppity POW to stop him leading prisoner revolts isn't going to get you information, but that doesn't make it any less torture.

Dinah hit Ollie to assert dominance. Bruce smacked Cluemaster around to coerce behavior. If torture is just (any degree of violence + motive associated with torture), they're both torturers.

[batcookies.insanejournal.com]

Well that's where it all gets a bit sticky, doesn't it? Because hurting someone to get information IS torturing them (and yes, there are many other things that are torture too), so where do you draw the line? Cutting the face is okay, cutting the tail is not? Or maybe cutting the tail and the face are okay, since she's got a healing ability, but something else isn't? Even in the real world it's all very murky, and we can make up all the rules we want, but it's not exactly science. We can't hook up people to a machine that beeps when what you're doing is getting dangerously close to being torture (and I'm not sure what kind of consensus we'd get if we went out and tested people to find out where they really feel the "do not cross" line is). It's not something that's clear and well defined at all and I hope that "The Avatar of Truth" doesn't end up saying otherwise.

[gargoylekitty.insanejournal.com]

While I agree that she's hardly defenseless, I do think that the 'superficial cut to the face' counts as the torture being started. Cutting someone's face with something you just threw at them is a lot more of a threat than the action with the tail. The face is more visible and your head is home to the organs that perceive 4 out of 5 senses. It's serious, despite it not being treated as such. Also it wasn't done in a fight, so the comparison to Bruce breaking a nose isn't applicable. She wasn't stopping her, she was attempting to intimidate her.

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

Also it wasn't done in a fight

Precisely why I used that comparison. Bruce's act of breaking someone's nose, in a fight while attempting to subdue someone, is excessive violence. It's extreme, over-the-top, painful and disfiguring and dangerous, more than is needed and more violent and cruel than can actually be justified.

It is in every way more extreme than a superficial cut to the cheek.

It is far more brutal compared to what is actually required to subdue someone, than a cut to the cheek is compared to what is actually required to keep someone subdued.

[gargoylekitty.insanejournal.com]

Yes, it is and Bruce isn't Diana. Though honestly a good writer wouldn't have him doing such things.

[broblawsky.insanejournal.com]

Wait, how is breaking someone's nose over the top when trying to subdue them? If you want to disable someone efficiently, you pretty much have to hit them in the face.

[scottyquick.insanejournal.com]

Bruce can do this (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/stephaniebrown/images/3/36/DetectivecomicsSteph1.jpg).