Secret Six #16
Dec. 10th, 2009 03:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
gargoylekitty posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
scans_dailyWith a two more for the 'Many Looks of Black Alice' and, as noted on Twitter...
First up, Black Alice stops Catman and Deadshot from ditching her.
Meh. Not too creative, just like your typical female version of the character with a lower/more angular dip in the front of the outfit.
Anyhow, she obviously succeeds so they head to a strip club, another attempt to ditch her.
Obviously, again, that fails.
With Scandal & co. there, they try to address the issue of 'Black Alice is definitely not joining them'(reason for her wanting to in the issue, go read!)
And they continue on the path of failing to get rid of her.
Not the biggest fan of Black Alice but it was an alright issue, only wish Scott had been on the art for it. :\
First up, Black Alice stops Catman and Deadshot from ditching her.
Meh. Not too creative, just like your typical female version of the character with a lower/more angular dip in the front of the outfit.
Anyhow, she obviously succeeds so they head to a strip club, another attempt to ditch her.
Obviously, again, that fails.
With Scandal & co. there, they try to address the issue of 'Black Alice is definitely not joining them'(reason for her wanting to in the issue, go read!)
And they continue on the path of failing to get rid of her.
Not the biggest fan of Black Alice but it was an alright issue, only wish Scott had been on the art for it. :\
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Date: 2009-12-10 09:37 pm (UTC)Mr. Mxysptlk, classic Eclipso, Harley, Knockout, Mr. Freeze, Bane, and Queen Bee.
Also: Black Alice should be the poster person for power perversion potential. (try saying that five times fast).
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Date: 2009-12-10 10:02 pm (UTC)By the way, has anyone mentioned how Ragdoll has no genitals? Because I'm sure as hell not tired of hearing that yet!
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Date: 2009-12-10 11:53 pm (UTC)*fingers crossed*
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Date: 2009-12-11 12:26 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2009-12-11 12:33 am (UTC)And her haning around with Miss Martian would produce epic laughs.
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Date: 2009-12-11 12:25 am (UTC)The banshee look reminds me strongly of an ex for some reason....
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Date: 2009-12-11 01:53 am (UTC)There, that should dose any flames.
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Date: 2009-12-11 02:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 01:54 am (UTC)And yes, I laughed out loud at Ragdoll.
maybe you missed this part
Date: 2009-12-11 03:54 am (UTC)Bane being any kind of sexual seems quite beyond my imagination.
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Date: 2009-12-11 06:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 01:59 am (UTC)The ones that looks like their female teammates, enemies, as well as members of Gen-13 and the occasional Marvel superheroine?
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Date: 2009-12-11 04:05 am (UTC)And Jesus CHRIST I wish people would put the term "Mary Sue" in the grave where it belongs.
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Date: 2009-12-11 04:16 am (UTC)Thank you. I hate that term so very much, especially when applied to, of all people, Lori "I have genuine personality flaws that cause me to do dumb and reckless things all the time" Zechlin.
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Date: 2009-12-11 04:40 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2009-12-11 04:57 am (UTC)It's also a very finite borrowing. She gets them taken from her pretty quickly and abruptly, which is not exactly a help when in a fight.
Finally, she doesn't really get how other peoples' powers work. Felix Faust comments that her use of the swiped powers are wasteful and ... pretty terrible actually. Someone with more skill and experience would trump her in a magical fight because they actually know how to use their powers effectively. She's just swinging a magical sledgehammer around.
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Date: 2009-12-11 05:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 05:04 am (UTC)(This rather proves scottyquick's point though)
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Date: 2009-12-11 05:25 am (UTC)(And I just realized how bitchy my last two comments must have sounded, which, uh, wasn't my intention at all, so sorry about that . . .)
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Date: 2009-12-11 08:10 am (UTC)I mean, at least, someone seems to use it for every character that exists for more than one arc....
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Date: 2009-12-11 01:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 12:13 pm (UTC)While we're at it, can we stop calling any newish character whose power-set overlaps an existing character's (such as 'magic') 'useless'?
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Date: 2009-12-11 02:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 05:10 pm (UTC)Her response was to complain about the term. And hey, she's complained about the term being applied to other people's characters as well. I would hardly categorize her response as embarrassing.
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Date: 2009-12-11 06:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 11:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-13 11:06 am (UTC)Alice'd have to be written way worse and be almost nothing but clichés to be a Mary Sue.
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Date: 2009-12-11 05:55 pm (UTC)Yes, she's a super-powerful character, but the effect has never been to make people fall at her feet with how cool it is that she can beat up Superman, the point has always been, "Geez, having a disturbed young girl with this kind of power seems like a train wreck waiting to happen."
An important difference.
Could not care less that someone doesn't like her character, am not the least bit offended, that's all fair game.
But I hate that idiotic "Mary Sue" term, especially when it's applied completely incorrectly.
Are pet peeves not allowed at Scans_Daily anymore?
I'm not the least bit mad about the thread, I always enjoy SD. But I think I have the right to loathe hearing that term misapplied for the millionth time, as well, that's all.
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Date: 2009-12-11 06:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 09:57 pm (UTC)- Scandal Savage, leader of Secret Six
- Ryan Choi, star of the All-New Atom
- Thomasina Lindo, star of Welcome to Tranquility
She also made pitches for Cass Cain OYL, and had Vixen star in a BOP story arc. I think the problem is, if Simone had loaded up the only villainous team in the DCU with COC, that would have had a ton of unfortunate implications. I think it's pretty safe to say that Scandal's not really leaving the team anyway, she's one of the core four.
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Date: 2009-12-12 12:01 am (UTC)The Six are not the only villainous team, and furthermore saying that letting them be characters of color would be worst than having none at all is an excuse that's made all the time. For goodness sake, Suicide Squad is pretty much the definitive bad guy comic and Amanda Waller and Bronze Tiger are the backbone of the team. And the League of Assassins has been based in Asia and the Middle East for decades as well. We don't need more heroes of color, we need more well developed characters of color, period. Civilians, heroes, villains, gods, etc.
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Date: 2009-12-12 03:56 am (UTC)Let me clarify, the Six are the only villainous team with a title. I'm saying it'd be bad that your only team with multiple COC is your only regular, which is fair, imo. Do you disagree?
The Suicide Squad, have they been seen since their mini? And Amanda Waller is a hero, Bronze Tiger was trying to redeem himself. Not exactly the Six, who just kidnapped a man and helped someone torture him.
And what I'm saying is that what Gail's doing is developing a character. Scandal is being kicked off the team she created, by a man she thought was her closest friend, because he claims it's for her own good, and being replaced by a snotty psycho teenager. How do you think that's going to make her feel?
Gail Simone agrees with you, by the way.
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Date: 2009-12-12 04:46 am (UTC)The constant "protection" of people of color by only making them take the most noble rolls does more harm than good. IIRC, Misfit was from a poor family that died in a tenement fire and Black Alice was motivated by losing her mother to drugs. Both would have perfect places to make a nonwhite teenager. I know people will call stereotype, but they're realistic for a black or Hispanic teenager that isn't stuck being whitewashed to the suburbs, where the writers ignore that those are dominated by white flight.
I say Amanda Waller and Bronze Tiger because they have clear analogues in the Six. Catman is clearly taking cues from Tiger while the cut throat leadership with an underlying affection of Waller is seen in Bane. Of course, Deadshot was on both teams.
The first Villains United mini had both Scandal and Cheshire on the team and I don't believe anyone read it as being unfairly balanced. Nonwhite villains require a lighter hand to keep from being flat, but they're perfectly doable. Jeanette is a point of disappointment as well. The mythological world of DC is narrow and European focused, why couldn't we have a woman from non western folk lore instead of a banshee?
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Date: 2009-12-12 05:02 am (UTC)But what I'm saying is that Birds of Prey was a title she inherited. What you were saying is that Simone is giving us yet another white character whining about her life and pushing aside a Hispanic woman in favor of a white guy, but I think what's actually going to happen is that the relationship between Bane and Scandal is going to become more complex, and that Simone's invented and pushed several major characters of color, so it's not exactly fair to say that Simone's not trying to fix the problem.
And because then we couldn't have gotten Tudor!Bane, that's why!
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Date: 2009-12-12 05:27 am (UTC)While I know you're not the one who brought it up, unless I somehow missed a story making his mother into a white woman, Bane is Hispanic.
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Date: 2009-12-12 02:53 pm (UTC)While I see where people might frown on having the Six, or indeed and hero's rogue gallery, be more diverse, I still feel that worry comes from a fear of the writer being branded racist than any regard for the characters of color themselves. Ra's al Ghul is probably the most famous non-white villain around and the movies changed him to white. It's telling of a larger problem.
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Date: 2009-12-14 08:42 pm (UTC)I can't believe people waste time with this. If someone thinks Dinah taking a young girl from a life of torture and abuse is bad because she's white, well, screw them. "Problematic," my ass. I've done more than my share of study about this and there are more Asian babies, mostly girl babies, available than Asian parents wanting to adopt them.
Ask those children if they would have preferred the state-run orphanages.
As for the Bane thing, you said, "Then in Secret Six we have a Hispanic woman losing her authority and having a white man take over to fix things"
This is what he was correcting. You got your facts wrong. Bane is not white. Bane is hispanic and always has been.
And trust me, I don't give a moment's worry about being called a racist. The Six are the Six because they are the characters that fit, regardless of mis-characterizations.
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Date: 2009-12-15 06:13 am (UTC)I know the issues of the treatment of Asian girls personally. I have two family members who are adopted by China. And while they have a better chance in America, it doesn't change the fact that they've become divorced from their heritage. They're the only Asian children in a majority white town and their adoptive parents try their best but can't ultimately understand the true burden of racist bullying because of their white privileged.
The older girl in particular has no idea what country she's even from, since she was seized by the Chinese government from southern Tibet. In the short run their childhood is going to be great, but now she's old enough to start asking questions and dealing with the fact that China's not the only cause of her problems. The US and other western countries are accomplices in the Chinese abuse of human rights economically and politically.
The story of Sin hits home personally, and the harsh truth is as long as people like Dinah seek out Lady Shiva there's going to be a demand for the abusive training of girls. It's not a black and white, or rather Asian and white, issue and I feel the storyline glossed over the real life implications.
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Date: 2009-12-14 08:35 pm (UTC)But I don't think tokenism and head counting is ever going to help.
And thanks for the kind words, Scotty. I think Six is a book that, oddly, is a lot more embracing of diversity than most superhero titles.
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Date: 2009-12-14 08:31 pm (UTC)The way you reduce these characters is really very sad. Huntress doesn't think of herself as a white girl, for one thing. Shiva being thought of as some generic martial artist is just bizarre, and reducing Vixen, a delightful character I adore to "hot black chick" is just plain insulting. And for the record, I would have LOVED to use Vixen as a long time BOpper and did try to get her, but the best-selling new writer in comics wanted to use her instead as a featured player in DC's premiere book, JLA. I'm sure if you really try, you can try to find something racially insensitive in that, but you would be dead wrong. The real facts are two writers who love the character fought over her (with civility) and she ended up with a role in the biggest team book dc has and a very prestigious mini. In b-list character terms, in the real world? That's pretty much winning the lottery.
You're still missing the point. This team has two Latin characters (it's debatable whether Scandal is off the team or not), both of whom have been the team's only leaders of all the white characters on the team. It's sexually diverse, as well. That's one third the team and 100% of the team's leaders.
But whatever, this seems pretty tenuous.
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Date: 2009-12-14 08:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-14 08:22 pm (UTC)First, I'm sorry, but every new character is not going to fit a particular agenda, even one I agree with. I create a ton of characters of color and happily insert them at every available opportunity. But I certainly think creating no Caucasian characters is a poor solution to the problem. It is, in fact, no solution at all.
But beyond that, what in the world do Cass and Jaime and Renee have to do with anything? Alice isn't taking their place, far from it, they HAVE slots to appear in, Alice does not, besides which, none of those characters fit in S6 even slightly, for reasons that are absolutely color-blind. How in the world is a character who may or may not be sticking around in a team book affecting characters whose own books failed, but were STILL given a second chance as back-up strips? Are you really trying to think there's something sinister there?
But perhaps most oddly, you're angry for something that makes no sense at all. Bane isn't white. Bane is a Latin male, 100%, and has been since his first appearance, something we've alluded to in Secret Six more than once. And Scandal's most certainly not going to accept Bane's orders, either. It's Act One of that arc.
I hate to keep this kind of ping pong going. My problem with the phrase is that it's a goofy and meaningless and misused term, not that you posted it in particular or with your problems with the issue. That's all perfectly fair. I just hate that term since it's one of those things that simply don't make any sense to use any more.
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Date: 2009-12-11 04:33 pm (UTC)So. Much. Motto. It's a horrible term to both writers and characters.
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Date: 2009-12-11 06:06 pm (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2009-12-11 04:17 am (UTC)And by "nice work" I mean "Catman was really hot", because that's all I care about.
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Date: 2009-12-11 05:02 am (UTC)Turn in your man card, Bane. These are words of someone unfamiliar with ownership of a man's genitals. Show a man the right nudey booty and he'll forget his own name.
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Date: 2009-12-11 09:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 09:49 am (UTC)Maybe I'm missing something, but that's EXACTLY what Bane is saying.
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Date: 2009-12-11 03:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 05:25 am (UTC)This issue had very weird pacing. I had to flip back and forth to see if I didn't accidentally skip over a page or two.
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Date: 2009-12-11 07:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 08:46 am (UTC)(I could have linked to TV Tropes. Am I not merciful?)
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Date: 2009-12-11 04:04 pm (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2009-12-11 06:18 pm (UTC)Hmph.
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Date: 2009-12-11 06:35 pm (UTC)She's appeared in a few issues of S6, and clearly has a crush on Scandal...who may have one in return, but the whole situation is a tad awkward.
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Date: 2009-12-11 06:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 09:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-11 09:06 pm (UTC)Unless they just really like the dancing?
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Date: 2009-12-12 02:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-12 03:08 am (UTC)(except uh, the strippers. let's keep the strippers)
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Date: 2009-12-12 04:23 am (UTC)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N6W4CJFWm4
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Date: 2009-12-12 05:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-12 10:56 am (UTC)