Batgirl #4

[aeka]

Batgirl has an interesting chat with....Oracle?

Comments

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[jeyl]

Selfishness? That's what the issue here is? She's Batgirl. She didn't take this cure and show off. She took it and set back to work in being the most unselfish thing she could be. A hero who puts her life on the line to help others. If anyone who has to use a wheelchair to get around has an issue with that, they're the a**holes.

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[aeka]

Let me put it another way: she seems to have conflictive feelings over her cure. On the one hand, yes she's doing the unselfish thing of saving people from thugs like the ones that mugged a wealthy couple later in this issue. On the other hand, why did she get to be cured from her own paralysis when any other people will never be cured of theirs? Those same people have to learn to accept that their lives are now different and that they will never go back to living their lives they way they're used to. In other words, these individuals had to accept themselves with their disability and continue to find meaning in their lives. The fact that Barbara went for a cure to her paralysis seems to imply that she couldn't accept her life as it was and couldn't find the other things in her life just as meaningful. So she feels selfish and probably cowardly in this regard as a result.

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[jeyl]

Hey listen, if you're happy with Barbara not understanding the simple notion that not everyone in the whole world can have everything that you have, knock yourself out. This is not a miracle. This was a trip to the doctors. It's their job to make things better, and not everyone world can go see a doctor. Yes, it sucks, but there are things you can do to help. I don't see Barbara helping those who are still using wheelchairs by trying to pursue the knowledge of fixing paralysis like that doctor did. She's feeling guilty over something she's not doing anything about.

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[aeka]

Hey listen, if you're happy with Barbara not understanding the simple notion that not everyone in the whole world can have everything that you have, knock yourself out.

Thank you for completely missing the point of my previous comments. As I recall, I was commenting on the exact opposite, which was Barbara's conflicted feelings over the matter. Not expressing how 'happy I am with Barbara not understanding the "simple" notion of not everyone being able to have what she has."

This is not a miracle. This was a trip to the doctors. It's their job to make things better, and not everyone world can go see a doctor.

Are you seriously implying that doctors can't make mistakes, or that there aren't any risks involved in trying to surgically correct a spinal injury? It's not that simple, and even less so where a spinal injury is involved. If it's an experimental surgical procedure, then the patient runs the risk of reacting poorly to the treatment and other things can go wrong. The fact that they didn't fuck up Barbara's spine anymore than it already was is by itself a *miracle* since she ran the risk of coming out much worse than already was.

As swatkat already said down below, don't try to rationalise something as complicated as what a person goes through after they've experienced trauma, and don't especially imply that doctors can make no mistakes because 'it's their job to make things better.' More often than not, things can and do go wrong, and where an operating table is involved, there's always the high risk of the patient not surviving or creating another complication they didn't have before. To say or imply otherwise is--in and of itself--fucking insulting.

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[jeyl]

"Are you seriously implying that doctors can't make mistakes, or that there aren't any risks involved in trying to surgically correct a spinal injury? It's not that simple, and even less so where a spinal injury is involved."

Of course doctors can make mistakes. They're only human. But when it comes to doing a procedure where if it does what the doctors say it was going to do is regarded as a miracle, it sounds more like you're putting your own life on the line for something that doesn't sound plausible. So from your point of view, Barbara risked her own life to be able to walk again. But that's not the issue we're dealing with here. We're dealing with the simple fact on whether she deserved to be able to walk again at all, not that she put her life on the line to get it.

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[aeka]

My original argument was precisely on Barbara's conflicting feelings. My comment in response to your "Barbara's recovery is not a miracle because it's the work of a doctor" was your comment rubbing me the wrong way. Doctors aren't miracle workers, on that much I can agree. But the fact that you brush off Barbara's recovery because "it's a doctor's job to make things better" while seemingly ignoring the risks involved is what I had a problem with.

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[jeyl]

Risks that this comic doesn't think it's worth mentioning. I'm not going to give the comic credit for stuff that it didn't include. How am I supposed to know that this operation was a risky endeavor? This is a super hero comic book where characters are brought back to life on a near weekly basis.

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[shadowpsykie]

She can feel that being in a wheel chair was not a burden while at the same time feeling unworthy of being able to walk while others can't. Recovering from a traumatic experience is not that easy...
Happiness over having survived, acceptence of current state in life, hope that life will get better, anger that life is not the same way it was before, guilt over having survived while others have not? Guilt over getting better when others haven't? frustration at yourself for being frustrated? she can have conflicting emotions. thhe fact of the matter is that is an extremely complicated situation, and people's emotions are complicated in and of themselves. no one person acts the same to the same event. but there are common reactions. conflicting emotions are one of the common reactions to trauma.

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[junipepper]

If anyone who has to use a wheelchair to get around has an issue with that, they're the a**holes.

Do you use a wheelchair? You know what, even if you do, you can't just call people "a**holes" because they don't see things the way you do.

What does this even mean? That no one whostill has to use a wheelchair has the right to feel envious of, or even resentful over, Barbara's cure because she went back to being Batgirl? Do you envision the rest of us cheering from the sidelines, content in the knowledge that nothing we could ever do could possibly be as worthy as that?

You don't get to pass judgment on what people in wheelchairs think and feel about their own situations and others'.

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[jeyl]

"You don't get to pass judgment on what people in wheelchairs think and feel about their own situations and others."

So what gives them the right to pass judgement on those when they don't know what they're going through? Sure, feeling envious and resentful is a very understandable emotion, but by no means should be something we should encourage. What good would that do?

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[swatkat]

You can't rationalize something like PTSD or survivor's guilt, which Barbara has in spades. Of course it's not a healthy approach on her part, but that's kind of the point. Even 'miracles' come with a price.

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[jeyl]

I don't call Barbara walking again a miracle. She just went to a doctor who had the skills to perform the feats necessary to correct a condition she was in. The only way it could be called a miracle is if she woke up one morning and found out she could walk again. THAT is a miracle.

Geez, why isn't she feeling guilty every time she goes for a checkup? Not everyone can go see a doctor so what makes her so special? That should come as a heavy burden.

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[swatkat]

Again, you and I don't, but Barbara seems to see the very fact of her cure - by a doctor, in a clinic she herself visited - as a 'miracle'. It's not a rational approach to things, sure, but the book isn't claiming Barbara is being particularly rational, either. Any attempt to rationalize, as you seem to be doing here, seems rather futile to me.

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[jeyl]

I may be trying to rationalize things, but I am by no means rational. This story is telling me to feel a certain way about Barbara when I don't really care. I don't feel sorry for her being able to walk again when other people can't. It's life. Same can go people who cannot be a super hero. Or for those who don't have friends or family. It's a sad part of life, but it's not something that should be on your mind like this. Geez, if she cares that much about folks who are paralyzed, why doesn't she become a doctor and help them to walk again? It's about as believable as going from a street fighting super hero to a pro-computer hacker.

(frozen) Mod Note

[salinea]

This thread is frozen while the Mod team discusses it.