Jean Loring in 52

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

This is from 52 Week Twenty-Seven. It's written by Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, Greg Rucka, and Mark Waid; the breakdowns are by Keith Giffen and the pencils by Shawn Moll. The cover is by J.G. Jones.


Ralph Dibny is traveling with the helm of Doctor Fate (really Felix Faust in disguise) trying to find a way to bring back Sue. In this issue he asks the Spectre if he can bring her back to him; the Spectre grins and replies "Absolutely."







In the 52 trade paperback one of the writers said that this was correcting a continuity error from Identity Crisis #1; when Sue is waiting for Ralph she hears a sound coming from inside the house. You're meant to think it's the killer, except Jean traveled to the Dibnys' home via the phone lines.

Comments

[freezer818.insanejournal.com]

That is some serious Spectredickery.

[yaseen101.insanejournal.com]

Um, hello? It's Geoff Johns, how can you not expect Dickery like this?

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

The Spectre's been a dick before.

[aaron_bourque.insanejournal.com]

When the Spectre isn't anchored by a human host, the only thing distinguishing it from Eclipso, aside from costume, is that it tends to remain static unless acted upon, whereas Eclipso is constantly looking for a host.

[leikomgwtfbbq.insanejournal.com]

That's kind of his schtick by now, really, I think.

Unless the Phantom Stranger is standing around being awesome nearby. The Stranger makes everyone on the same page about a hundred times cooler, simply because he's that awesome. And that includes the Spectre.

[kingrockwell]

Mostly Mark Waid, actually.

[jlroberson.insanejournal.com]

Frankly? This is what Jean deserved. All I have to see is Sue making sure Ralph's present is just so to think that. Actually though, it never had to happen at all.

God damn you, Meltzer.

That said: okay, I almost kind of understand how the Atom goes through phone LINES. But what about a cordless?

Which is what Sue's picking up.

[404glitch.insanejournal.com]

SBP Punch.

We can still use that, right?

[thokstar.insanejournal.com]

There's still a signal traveling to the phone even if it's cordless, and Jean can still ride that. She just hitches a right on the appropriate electro-magnetic wave.

(Yes, anybody with any knowledge of QM will see the multiple flaws in that. I don't care.)

[statham1986.insanejournal.com]

Sure, this is what Jean deserves, I agree.

The argument (not really an argument, more a statement), is whether she, Sue, or Ralph had to go through any of that bullshit. Seriously. I love some of DC's decisions over the past years, but if there's one thing I could have wripped out and cast into the retcon pile, it's Identity Crisis.

Someone mentioned 'happy' comics, to me, the other day, when I post the DV8 reveal, and as stupid as it sounds, when Meltzer was establishing just how great Ralph and Sue's relationship was, I loved it, because I'd never heard of the characters before and just loved how perfect their relationship seemed. Then I immediately wanted to rip his skull off for that putrid page with Ralph holding Sue's charred body. I could seriously do with just the implication, there. I would love just a series about Ralph and Sue, though.

[cowtasticism.insanejournal.com]

I didn't like Identity Crisis but I thought it was great how Meltzer made the reader love Ralph and Sue before killing her. Maybe I'm crazy, but I find it much more enjoyable to rad about the death of characters I know and like than a character I do not really care about.

[jlroberson.insanejournal.com]

Well, in a story sense, such deaths serve different purposes. In a mystery, which IC was, however incoherent, you have to start out with the death of a major character. In a big comics "event," inevitably they have to throw something down like that(Orion dying at the start of FC, Earth-3 at the start of COIE, the Freedom Fighters at the start of InfC)because in order to whip up interest in an event you have to give a sense of, "My god, if they're willing to do that what ELSE might they do?" The deaths of characters you don't know well or care much about are different. They are there to show the seriousness of a threat. In the DCU, in the first few issues of an event, the characters who die generally bridge both categories. For instance, I don't care about the Hawks, but I still found their deaths at the start of BN a bit freaky.

Satisfyingly so, mind. I was so sick of them whining about their reincarnatory luvvv. I just wish the spear had gone through Carter first, because it was just as fridgy as the similar impalement between the tits of Dee Tyler, which I found kind of...ick. And not in the way I was supposed to.

[jlbarnett.insanejournal.com]

they did a real good job of making this very intense. I didn't know these characters really, but I felt what was going on there.

[taggerung301.insanejournal.com]

same here

[ladymirth.insanejournal.com]

...WOAH! That's intense!

I wonder what would happen if the same thing could be done to the Joker?

[blake_reitz.insanejournal.com]

There was an issue of JLA, I think, where they went deep into the Joker's twisted psyche and found a not-crazy guy living there, among all the chaos. So, maybe? I get the feeling thought it would end up with a Spectre-powered Joker, ala Emperor Joker.

[icon_uk.insanejournal.com]

I remember the "normal man at the heart of the Joker" story, which I liked. It does seem to conflict with the likes of Chuck Dixon's take on the Joker, where The Last Laugh mentioned that the Joker's brain was literally physically warped by his acid bath, so his brain structure is unique and abnormal, and so he's essentially incapable of ever being restored to sanity.

[cowtasticism.insanejournal.com]

There was also a Batman Black & White story that explains that the Joker might not by crazy at all. Something about him just being sadistic and evil and just pretending to be insane.

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

Except when Martian Manhunter made him temporarily sane in Morrison's run, he was remorseful.

[cowtasticism.insanejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Batman B&W thing isn't canon since none of the other B&W stories are. It was just an interesting view on the Joker thing.

[icon_uk.insanejournal.com]

Indeed, it's a good notion, and also suggested IIRC in "Under the Hood", where Jason suggests the Joker isn't nearly as nuts as he pretends to be.

[zechs27.insanejournal.com]

It's probably cannon since in the end the very nature of it is called into question at the end when it's revealed the report was written by Harley Quinn when she interned at Arkham.

The more seasoned of the two Arkham guards who where discussing it then tells the one who found the report to just get rid of it and forget about it. The fact that it was written by a woman who went mad becoming Joker's #1 fangirl. Hence once more offering up that multiple choice option of Joker's origin. That sometimes it could be one way and other times another. It all depends on what deck is dealt in Mista J's mind at the time. God that was the only worth wild part of Countdown, those Villain Origins.

[aaron_bourque.insanejournal.com]

Meh. The Joker's crazy. Is he as crazy as he acts? That's the question.

[comicoz.insanejournal.com]

JLA #35, one of the Day of Judgement tie ins with Hal as Spectre I think. Just re-read it a month or so ago, good story!

[yaseen101.insanejournal.com]

Why didn't he just keep her sane when he came back? Under the hands of a good writers, a Jean Loring redemption arc would have been great and would have created possibilities for a 'The Atom' spin-off title, it would have been cool to see what really drove Jean over the edge, having her try to return to normal life, making amends with Ralph, repairing her relationship with Ray and keeping villains from influencing her. It would have been much better than turning her into a one note villain.

[statham1986.insanejournal.com]

Because DC's awfully black and white in this respect. 'Jean's evil, now she's going to be punished'. That's it. Redemption, unless you're Hal Jordan, is a big fat dirty word, at DC.

I don't think there would be any redemption possible for her, really, at least with the current state of DC. If she did turn 'good' again, it would most likely be elaborate setup for screwing her friends over again.

The worst part is how it seems to have affected characters around her, like Ray, who, in the first issue of Robinson's long-awaited Cry for Justice, resorted to the fucking ridiculous method of extracting information from a criminal by using the same idea Jean used to kill his wife. That was a real WTF moment for me, and somehow, I can't really consider Ray a hero, anymore.

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

I'm hoping, HOPING, that Ray's behavior in Cry for Justice is "undue influence" from some kind of vengeance creature.

[btravage.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

According to the auther, he isn't a hero any more, that's why he's ray Palmer instead of the Atom

[statham1986.insanejournal.com]

Wonderful. So DC allows one of it's golden boys to piss on a top character on a whim.

Christ. Even FRANK MILLER, of all people, had more respect for Ray than this.

[yaseen101.insanejournal.com]

I also didn't like that part with Ray one bit, if giving a character a 'personality' means that you have to completely destroy the fundamental core of the character then I'd rather have no personality at all.

I also don't like how DC seem to think that angst-ing up characters, making them 'dark,angsty, brooding' is the best way to tell stories. It's not like that you can have angst but it needs to be balanced, angst, happiness, gore, character development, action, etc. You can't tell a one sided story where everyone is all angsty.

[busterella.insanejournal.com]

Motto.

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

This establishes that, yes, Jean *did* intend to kill Sue.

It doesn't explain *why* she went homicidal, though. Meltzer's "Womens is crazy!" explanation is my prime complaint regarding IC. And no one has attempted a more nuanced explanation.

My other IC complaints: How Wally and Kyle were treated by the other characters. The JLA acted like Wally had become the Flash just last week. Kyle was someone the JLA were stuck with due to their bad luck he got a power ring.

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

This establishes that, yes, Jean *did* intend to kill Sue.

Where does it say that?

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

Hmm. Well, Jean doesn't say "It was an accident" while begging for mercy. And no matter how dickish the Spectre is, he knows the difference between an accident and murder.

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

I don't know; I think it's a pretty big leap to assume that Jean had intentionally killed Sue just because she doesn't say it was an accident here.

And the Spectre is mainly pissed at Jean because of the whole "Day of Vengeance" thing.

[batcookies.insanejournal.com]

I disagree. The Spectre I know would most definitely punish you if you were being selfish and stupid, did something dangerous, and got someone killed. He can be that much of a dick. The Spectre forced Crispus Allen to kill his own son. The Spectre is an unmitigated bastard.

There's no way in hell Jean meant to kill Sue. Her crime was basically "negligent homicide" and that's enough in the Spectre's book.

[btravage.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

What I like to do in situations like this is ask myself "Would Nancy Grace consider this a murder", and if the answer is yes, so would the Spectre.

[icon_uk.insanejournal.com]

You don't take a flamethrower to an accidental death. You don't take a flamethrower if what you're wanting to do is scare someone by tap dancing through their inner ear. You take a flamethrower to cover up a murder.

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

(http://www.pict.com/)

(http://www.pict.com/)

(http://www.pict.com/)

(http://www.pict.com/)

There's nothing to suggest that she went there with the intention of killing Sue.

[icon_uk.insanejournal.com]

"I shrunk some other weapons, just in case". In case of WHAT exactly? Why would you shrink any weapons AT ALL, never mind a freaking FLAMETHROWER.

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

Jean's goal was just to get Ray to come back to her. Why would she have wanted to kill Sue, when merely scaring her would have sufficed?

[icon_uk.insanejournal.com]

Because Jean was seriously unbalanced, her whole plan is nucking futs from start to finish.

Her "I didn't mean to kill her" falls sort of flat when one considers that she is respsonsible for what happened to Jack Drake too, and seems unbothered by that.

Seriously IC is atrociously written and nothing can excuse it's dreadful excuse for a plot.

[zemo.insanejournal.com]

I always thought it's kind of obvious that she brought the flamethrower along because she was crazy. Most probably she's got a rubber chicken and some Kryptonite among those other weapons.

Now, seriously: She was nuts, so she fucked up big time, end of story. Yeah, it's a cop out and has nothing to do with real psychological instabilities, but there#s various sore points with that in comics, so I#m willing to take the bad with the good. :D

[batcookies.insanejournal.com]

See, you're trying to fill a plot hole with the logic that people don't bring flamethrowers unless they intend to use violence.

But that doesn't fly with me.

She didn't mean to kill Sue, and she brought a flamethrower because the writer is a bad writer.

[icon_uk.insanejournal.com]

Fair point.

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

To me, Meltzer was using "Womens is crazy!" as the motive. And Sane!Sue saying to Vengeance!Ralph "It wasn't me!" doesn't help matters.

[darkknightjrk.insanejournal.com]

But that would assume that she didn't lie to try to make herself look better to Ray.

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

I'm afraid I see that very, very long pause where she just freezes and then weasles as indication that Jean, who was a smart lawyer, was lying.

[jlbarnett.insanejournal.com]

maybe he couldn't do it when Spectre's power left him.

[halloweenjack.insanejournal.com]

I hate Identity Crisis, but I like jean!Eclipso a hell of a lot better than the old one.

[jlroberson.insanejournal.com]

Personally, I always thought Eclipso was kind of stupid. Maybe it was the costume. But when they actually raised it to a being the same level as the Spectre, I just went, I'm going to forget they said that.

[yaseen101.insanejournal.com]

Although I do like Ralph as the skinny, pointy nosed geek most of the time, I kind of like this look for Ralph.

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

I wish this whole thing would just die, I really, really do.

Incidentally, "The Origin of the Black Canary" on the cover there is cracking my shit up. Tears of laughter, here.

[busterella.insanejournal.com]

Ralph's hobotastic beard of sorrow makes me laugh.

Fuck Identity Crisis.

That is all.

[thanekos.insanejournal.com]

So Yeah. (http://dibnydiary.blogspot.com/2006/11/you-are-my-bitch-now-dr-fate.html)

[kingrockwell]

Assuming the History of the DCU backups count as separate stories, each main 52 story's only 20 pages. You've got 7 2/3, which is a page over the limit.
(and dammit there goes my Vic-has-cancer post)

[jlbarnett.insanejournal.com]

So just assume it isn't.

[kingrockwell]

Odds are, it is, since they weren't collected together in the trades, and even allowing for it not to be, it's still 1/3 over.