Red Hood: Lost Days #6 (Spoilers!!!)

[benicio127]

AKA the final issue of this mini-series and the issue where I was like omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg

cuntfucius, levy and whitesycamore will be giddy about this.




Four pages.









Whoa! WHOA! WHOA!! Hotter than I expected. Ahem! He wakes up and she's gone. She leaves him with a note and another very important gift, which I was so, so, so glad to see in this.



Oh hey, look! Jason uses gmail. Mary Borsellino will be pleased to know about the dagger in this.
Here's her entry from evenrobins.net on Jason's dagger. Quoting from the entry:
Red Hood’s weapon of choice is a dagger with a waved blade. This edge design has been popular in numerous cultures throughout history, with a variety of connotations attached to the distinctive shape.

In simple, practical terms, a waved blade allows for a longer overall edge distance than would be present in a straight dagger of the same length. Waved blades in longer weapons, such as Flamberge swords, have the added advantage of causing the other weapon in a duel to vibrate, thereby making one’s opponent uncomfortable. This would not be true to any noticeable degree in a weapon such as Red Hood’s knife, however.

The origin of Red Hood’s knife within the Batman comics themselves is most likely the story “The Lazarus Pit!” from issue #243 in 1972. One of the original Ra’s Al Ghul stories by the O’Neil/Adams/Giordano team, this issue saw Batman forced to duel against a man who owed debts to both Ra’s and Batman. Both opponents weilded waved daggers.

As Judd Winick, the writer responsible for the entire Red Hood arc, utilised the Al Ghul family as a significant plot element, it seems likely that this classic storyline was one of the key inspirations behind Red Hood’s dagger.

Just as with the history of waved daggers in the real world, however, the element of pure aesthetic interest must be taken into account. Placing a waved dagger in a panel is more visually interesting and suggests a greater degree of ritual — whether the reader is aware of the legacy of the Keris blade or not — than a simple knife can.

Whatever the reasons may be, Red Hood’s dagger has developed iconography of its own, and now casts a shadow of specific meaning forward over any future appearances of such weapons in future Batman stories.


I'm so sad to see this mini-series end.

Comments

[icon_uk]

So Talia actually boinked her "Beloved"'s adopted SON? That's just plain damn WRONG.

[starwolf_oakley]

Saying "You remain unavenged" and smooching him in one thing. This is a little different.

Of course, IIRC, Talia was somewhat unstable at this time from getting tortured, killed and resurrected by Nyssa a half-dozen times.

[kirke_novak]

Yeah, I don't dig it.

[jarodrussell]

Geez, who doesn't own KORD, Inc. these days?

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Ted? Because, you know...

[sun_man]

Talai is so hot. I think she should go for Dick next.

[grimmbear]

It appears that's ALL she goes for. You'll notice these been no Tallia/Cass sexiness.

[superheroics]

I'm not keen on the hookup, but damn if Jason doesn't look hot in this art.

[whitesycamore]

I'm... ambivalent about the hookup, but Jason is looking incredibly hot here. I must say Haun really seems to be going out of his way to draw him sexy. He's even more lovingly rendered than Talia in these scans - a definite "female gaze" thing going on. I dig it.

[jaybee3]

Damnit, didn't we all say Winick would go THERE with this storyline and then say no, even if wouldn't do it. Bah.

[benicio127]

Yeah, I didn't think he'd go there either, but now that he did, I can't argue with the extreme hotness that it is.

I love it... complicated, fucked-up, non-vanilla-y goodness. Just like real people.

[whitesycamore]

I'm not sure how I feel about this yet. I mean, I do ship them... But it feels very odd to actually see it out there on the page.

I AM glad to see that Jason has finally shaved. An all consuming quest for vengeance is no excuse for poor grooming! (also it's quite effective as a visual metaphor for loss of virginity).

[aelflar]

Agreed! Standards of personal hygiene and overall care for one`s appearance must be upheld, be you a hero, anti-hero or villain!

[sistermagpie]

Poor Jason. See, no matter how many people tell me Talia's awesome, any time she's in a relationship with someone besides Ra's I just keep waiting for them to roll their eyes at her. Beloved, father, son, sexy, loving Talia, beloved son, father, sexy, loving Talia...

But then, that's probably why I like Dick.

[shewhohashope]

I am the most irrational Talia fan, because comments like this usually make me really angry, but I hate how Talia is constantly written with men, and will possibly be incredibly upset by this issue once my feelings coalesce beyond being stunned into confused neutrality.

[cloud_wolf]

Messed up to the max. I'll be over here imagining D&D's reaction.

Damian: *jaw drops*
Dick: well then

[benicio127]

I'm just waiting for the comments about who Damian's real daddy is now... DUN DUN DUNNNNN xP

(Of course that would mean Jason is 28 and he's not, especially since I don't know if Dick is even *that* old)

[jaybee3]

Just to add to my previous thoughts (after I try to wash the images from my mind - unlike others I NEVER shipped this).

But, even knowing the slogan of Scans Daily, is it's "never just you". Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Who really DOESN'T like it? Not from Jason's POV (duh, he's a teenage male and she's a MUCH older hot chick offering herself to him) but from Talia's? The version of Talia that we had previous to this series never even looked at men other than her Beloved let alone had sex with him. Now in 6 issues we have Winick having the daughter of Ra's having casual sex with some minion and then has sex with the son of her "Beloved"? Would the Talia we saw in the 70s-90s, even up to Hush, do this? Heck, I don't think the EVIL Talia Morrison's been writing would do this - she still seems as hung up over Bruce as ever.

Remember the days when Talia used to be an actual rival to Selina as Bruce's top love interest with writers/readers? I guess that's gone now. Selina has slept with father/son before (the Bradleys) and was criticized for and derided for it ever since but she's never gone farther than kiss one of the Robins (to explicitly make Bruce jealous). This is a whole different kettle of fish.

Or am I the only who sees this? And everyone else is just LOVING this - oedipal/incestual (she is the mother of another of his sons) stuff?

[shewhohashope]

I liked random minion! And I don't think Talia's obsession with Bruce ever stopped her having non-romantic relationships with other men. 70's/80's Ra's refers to him as the only man to have ever engaged her emotions.

Of course, I love Talia and want nothing more than for her role to not be in competition as Bruce's number one love interest.

[naebler]

HA proof jason isn't a ginger! Dye my hair my ass.

[daggerpen]

<3

[cuntfucius]

I honestly don't think Jason or Talia are mentally stable at this point in their relationship, which I think makes this more sad than hot. I really enjoy the relationship between these two, but I do feel that Winick just... tacked on this hook-up in a way that I personally didn't find very believable. Seemed like something that would appear on a CW show. I understood Jason's motivation for it completely -- hot, loving woman figure comes on to him, he's up for it. But I'm not convinced of Talia's doing here. Seems more like she was being pushed hard by Winick's hand to do this rather than convincing the reader that she has the genuine hots for Jason in that way.

Talia has been taught to use sex as a weapon, yes, but she's being written in a slightly exotified way. I've got mixed feelings on this one, and unlike most people in here, it has nothing to do with the age difference or his role as Bruce's adopted son.

That being said, I still love the dynamic, am not squicked, but am instead just pretty convinced the unfortunate awkwardness of this scene is the lack of clarity for both characters, who seem to transform into a different person under every new writer.

[shewhohashope]

I agree with you on this one. There would be a way to get it to be really believably (and not offensively) done, just by putting a little more focus on Talia, but unfortunately, this is Jason's story, and we are never going to get one that is solely Talia's because that's not how comics work. With regard to Jason, his epic mother issues made this almost inevitable.

[cuntfucius]

YEP, the more I read this, the more I just feel sorry for both Jason and Talia (you know, feel sorry for them in the way where I don't justify anything they do though).

[sweettart1823]

:/ does this mean my Mia can't make fun of Jason for having like no experience with the ladies? Now I'm sad.

And this book did well right? Soooo does that mean it's time to give Jason an ongoing? y/y?

[cloud_wolf]

IDK. I mean, it's totally not going to happen seeing how he's slated as Dick's new ~arch-nemesis~ but even then. RH:LD started out as selling about the same amount as Batman Beyond (around spot 55) but dropped twenty spots whereas BB stayed about the same. Maybe that's why BB was the one to get the ongoing?

[dramedy]

...when did Jason turn into Zachary Quinto? ...or am I the only one who sees that?

[cloud_wolf]

Still, Jeremy Haun sure knows how to draw hot people.

[big_daddy_d]

Thank you for posting. I will definitely NOT be being this book, let alone ever mentioning it and will happily erase it from my memory. I was never onboard for this ship, never liked it, and overall it just gave me an uncomfortable creep factor. I often feel the same way in regards to any flirtation between Dick and Selina. Don't like it. Feels wrong, and let's be honest, makes me like said characters involved even less and even cause me to lose repsect points for them. So..no.

P.S. - Loving how some who shipped this are now uncomfortable that it actually happened. Makes me laugh.

[cuntfucius]

I'm not uncomfortable that it happened at all.

I also wasn't ever bothered by Roy and Dinah's sexual tension under certain writers.

[shewhohashope]

In other news, Jason has being wearing the same clothes for the past three years.

[whitesycamore]

Hello, quest for vengeance? No time for laundry!

[sweettart1823]

OH and btw, Jason's shocked face, when Talia tells him her father is dead cracks me up for some reason. He's all "O:"

[jeani-x.livejournal.com]

oh god! this made me laugh so hard! huauhuha

[irrelevant]

Aaaaaand, so, because neither of them can do Bruce, they do each other. Pfffft. Yeah, whatever.

Which is pretty much my overall reaction to this series. Pretty, pretty art, some awesome Jason-ness, plus some sheer wtfery. Eh, typical Winick.

[autohobbs]

0_0

[jeani-x.livejournal.com]

That's what I love about Jason.

He seeks love. He needs it. Any kind of affection is good for him because he lost everything. I mean, c'mon, his mother betrayed him and even so he tried to help her. He died helping her.

It's not surprising that he'd have sex with Talia. It goes beyond being 18 and horny here. Talia took care of him. Believed in him. Anti-Hero or not, Jason is the kind of guy that protects/gives in to what he loves/cares about.

Talia has daddy issues and Jason has mommy issues. Yeah. Not to mention that they were both in a situation where nothing really mattered. She'd lost her father, he'd failed his task.

Maybe it was just me but I didn't feel weird reading it. Don't need to ship it, don't need to hate it. Sometimes sex is just another form of comfort.

And just look at Jason when he wakes up. Look at the condom wrapper next to his bed. If anything, it was a hot drawing. =D

[cuntfucius]

This is a very good comment!!

[daggerpen]

Yeah, so... I totally did not see that coming, and still can't believe Winick actually went through with it. Especially since I'm probably the only person ever not to read any subtext into the Jason/Talia thing.

[irrelevant]

You're never the only one, especially not on this comm. :P I don't read them that way myself, but I know a ton of other people do, so... I'm chalking this one up to WTFery, and things I just can't see, no matter how long I stare at them.

[superfangirl1]

So nice to see where he got mr pointy!

No even going to touch jason and talia. Just wish that was me.

.....

What?

[whitesycamore]

For a second there I thought you meant something else by "where he got mr pointy". 0_0

[althechi]

That is one strange segue, although bringing up the lack of vitality in your parents is always awkward.

Also, isn't Ra's alive? =S

[daggerpen]

This was set back when he had his death arc.

[jaybee3]

Another thing about Talia's behavior here (which perhaps is more about Editorial and Winick just ignoring all previous characterization of Talia) but there are some continuity issues with how she's portrayed. This sexual encounter is just prior to Loeb's Hush storyline as the next morning Talia’s e-mail tells Jason about a new character called Hush who’s up to something (so this is prior to the retconning that Jason was portraying his risen self in Hush to test Bruce).

Since Hush (the storyline) began:
Talia saved Catwoman’s life for Bruce’s sake (in Hush itself). Doesn’t sound like a person who wants to “punish” him to the extent of sleeping with his son.

Talia, after being appointed CEO of LexCorp while Lex was President, tore it apart and on her way out started selling pieces of Lex’s company to Bruce/Wayne Enterprises at discount prices (a funny way to “punish someone” also doesn’t sound like someone trying to buy up parts of Bruce’s corporation on the sly to help Jason)

According to one of the first issues of Gotham City Sirens (i.e. just in 2009), Dini had a flashback to having a conversation with Selina on how to prevent anybody from learning Bruce was Batman. She did it for Bruce’s sake and out of respect for Selina since in Talia’s view they were the only two women “Bruce has truly loved”. This flashback must have taken place after Hush (since Selina is in her current costume and she knows Bruce is Batman) but not long after since the flashback dates itself as “2 years ago”. Which means that not long after this supposed sex with Jason to punish Bruce, Talia went out of her way to help Selina to make sure Bruce’s secrets stayed safe. Why?

Then we get to Morrison’s Talia, which (all taking place after the events in this mini-series and some prior to Ra’s return) have Talia still obsessed with Bruce to the point where she has reports given to her on every woman he’s so much as seen with and gets angry when it seems the thing with Jezebel is serious. In Batman & Son when she introduces Damien (who obviously must have been in the background to Talia’s mind when she was sexing it up with his other son) to Bruce, she tells him she’s giving him a chance to do what he always wanted, to “reform” her, and the 3 of them can be a family. It doesn’t seem like she’s kidding. What would she have said had Bruce taken her up on it? “Oh, by the way, Beloved I had sex with Jason, even though he’s just a bit older than Robin (Tim), and am also the one who started him on the road to vengeance against you, but I'm you, I and Damien can be one happy family ”.
Yet, this sex thing is obviously something either Jason or Talia would have used to hurt Bruce later on. After all, you can’t punish Batman if he doesn’t know about it. And again wanting to be a family with Bruce and Damien is prior to Ra’s returning - one of the reasons she gives to Jason for crossing “the line”. But yet, again later on, she will launch an army of ninja man-bats to take out Jezebel following Bruce’s supposed death. This doesn’t sound like the same woman in this Winick mini-series, unless Talia has extreme mood swings or is bi-polar. It was just a few months (less in comic time) back that we found out that Talia has a new Bat-fetus waiting in the wings now that Damien has failed her. In other words, according to Winick, the woman who had sex with one of Bruce’s sons to “punish” him and to "cross the line" wants yet another of Bruce’s spawn RIGHT NOW.

All of this AFTER the events of this mini-series (I’m not even going to go with Talia’s characterization prior to Hush which these events with Jason take place before). I know Morrison’s Jason (the red-headed balding one with zits) and Winick’s (the black-haired one who looks the same age as Dick) are seemingly two different people (throw in Tony Daniel’s insane Gattman/Jason and we have yet a 3rd personality) but c’mon. Really, DC?

And once again we Winick casually using a DC female’s sexuality in a story where she is beside the point. Just as once we had Huntress (who prior to Winick was not known as a bed-hopper) having casual sex with Arsenal who she barely knows - with the story all about Roy and Dick and she’s just a plot device. Huntress didn't have a "reputation" before Winick. Here we have Talia, who’s never even shown sexual interest in anyone other than Bruce since the 1970s (I’m not saying she shouldn’t or that it wouldn’t be an interesting story but it should be HER story) all of a sudden sleeping with some random lackey (the guy’s suddenly taking off clothes while they’re in the middle of a conversation for goodness sake) and then seducing the teenage troubled possibly brain damaged (from the Pit) son of the man she professes to love (and whose son she’s already had previously) in 6 issues in a story not about her or her motivations or her loves but about Jason. Is asking for consistency in characterization so wrong?

[irrelevant]

Is asking for consistency in characterization so wrong?

Ummm... this is comics? Continuity/characterization gets trashed as soon as a writer with a pet theory that doesn't really fit existing canon shoehorns it in with the editors' blessings?

...Sorry, I got nothing.