ILLUMINATI: Personal responsibility

[starwolf_oakley]

Oracle once wondered if the Bat-family was culpable for the Joker's crimes since they never did anything permanent to stop him. Here's a few pages from the NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMINATI special where a similar discussion about culpability is discussed.





First, a page where the Black Panther shows how smart he is.



T'Challa's smart, but... The problem with the general public of the Marvel Universe is that they are idiots. Some of the smarter idiots are worried superheroes might subjugate those they protect. This isn't Tony's intention here. He just wants to subjugate other superheroes. Which he eventually does. Idiot.

The full two-page spread of Hill and Stark's conversation.



Spider-Man has a simple reason for not killing Osborn: Neither Aunt May nor Uncle Ben would like it. And Spider-Man is now the *only* Marvel Superhero who thinks killing people is wrong.

Comments

[shanejayell]

I've always felt Civil War was kinda... wrong minded. If anyone is 'responsible' it's the authorities who keep letting people like Osborn escape.

Clean your own house, Miss Hill, before pointing fingers at others.

[q99]

Yes. It's not like Spider-man bringing Osborn in magically protects his life from others acting.

Not killing someone a thousand times doesn't make you responsible for their actions.

[warpedhand]

Eh, it's pretty clear in story at least that they were right about the Hulk.

[shanejayell]

Dwah?

In canon the Hulk has... I don't want to say NEVER but close... very rarely if ever hurt a innocent person. The only writer who seems to write him as if he HAS id, of course, Bendis. *shrug*

[roguefankc]

Eh, it's pretty clear in story at least that they were right about the Hulk.

But...what's your take on General Ross aka Rulk? She-Hulk? The Thing?

How about some of the super-villains like the Kingpin? Dr. Doom? Norman Osborne? Iron Man and Reed Richards for Clor, the SHRA, and how they betrayed their friends?

That's why Hill's reasoning sticks in my craw so much. Evil done in the service of good is still evil.

[freezer]

Umm... How many times did Spidey actually throw Osborn in jail? After Osborn went on his live TV murder spree is the only time I can think of.

Which is one less time than the govenment has put Osborn in a position of power.

Seriously: Fuck Civil War.

[big_daddy_d]

Umm... How many times did Spidey actually throw Osborn in jail? After Osborn went on his live TV murder spree is the only time I can think of.

Isn't that when Luke Cage owned his ass? I remember that fondly.

[shadur]

One of the reasons I still despise Hill is that despite stellar efforts to make her look badass and on the side of the angels, as far as I can tell nobody in any kind of position of authority has called her on the vast amounts of ethically questionable if not downright ILLEGAL crap she pulled while she was in charge of SHIELD during CW, which she usually tried to justify with stupid comments like the one she makes here.

[big_daddy_d]

since we're on the subject of heroes being culpable for a villain's crimes, I would like to see a post from Ultimates vs. Ultimate X-Men because from what I remember, The Ultimates went after them all because of Magneto returning and kicking their ass..soo...they decide to go after the X-Men since..well Prof. X did lie about Mags being dead.

[icon_uk]

I think I had this discussion about Batman and the Joker a week ago, but the SHIELD grunt's POV is even less plausible.

A member of a vast covert ops organisation, which could (if it was competent) have Osborn executed for multiple murders in less time than it takes to type this sentence, and would be justified in doing so), is whining about a self appointed vigilante NOT killing? Lame.

[wizardru]

Motherfucking MOTTO.

This whole conversation sounds INCREDIBLY hypocritical coming from Hill. I mean, if she's so damned concerned about the Hulk or the Green Goblin...then she can do something about it. Don't sit there and say that a vigilante should break the law EVEN MORE and just straight up kill a villain when HE decides that the villain is dangerous; instead do it yourself. At best, what this really means is that Hill is looking for patsies to do her dirty work for her...just one more reason to hate Hill as a character.

I mean, Nitro kills hundreds of school kids in Civil War....and SHIELD doesn't recapture him afterwards? AFAIK, last time he was seen working for the Hood.

And how's that bust on the Punisher coming, SHIELD?

[e_307]

Uh huh...Spider-Man should just snap his bad guys' necks...right...like that wouldn't have Hill and every other SHIELD agent crying that Spidey turned into a horrible murdering psychopath and launching some manhunt against him. And they'd probably put more effort into hunting down and squashing Pete than they ever did into keeping Osborn locked up.

[wizardru]

Oh yeah, they'd capture him right after they got the Punisher. :P

[hybrid2]

This is so stupid.

The heroes do theyre jobs right and stop the criminals.

It's the justice system that dont.

What is it with Mrvel always blaming other's insted of the peoples actualy responcible?
Like Speedball insted of Nitro.

I bet most people in the MU dont even know about Nitro.

[icon_uk]

Actually, since the fight at... wherever the place was... was televised, they would know about Nitro, which makes the blanket blaming of Speedball, Namorita and the others even more ludicrous as an explanation.

[thelazyreader]

I guess that's Bendis' viewpoint. Any other writer would have Iron Man throw that question back in her face with: "Since you guys think you know better than Spidey why don't you just put a bullet in Osborne's skull every time he's locked up and vulnerable?

[tsunamiwombat]

And then he would've slept with her, cause thats how Tony Stark roll.

[nezchan]

Yeah, it all comes down to "Spidey did his job and put him away, so isn't it largely the fault of the guys who let him go each time?"

[tsunamiwombat]

T'Challa really is smart, and is clearly Marvels Batman. Too bad he keeps getting hit with the idiot ball thrown by other people.

[icon_uk]

He's the MU equivalent of Eric the Cavalier in Dungeons and Dragons, or Nightscream in Beast Machines, they're actually the ones who always talk logical coherent sense about their situation, but because it doesn't do to make the heroes look bad, they're either ignored or interrupted by random passing catastrophes.

[vitruvian23]

It's all BS. If Spider-Man succeeds in capturing Osborn and turning him over to the authorities, it's their fault if they fail to convict him or keep him incarcerated, not his. After all, it's not as though executing criminals on his own say-so would endear him to the public or result in him being tarred as a threat and/or menace any less often, would it? No, it would just confirm every fear the average Joe has about superhumans operating by their own set of rules and possibly taking things over from regular humans, and make him a fugitive who's wanted for actually breaking the law in a major way.

Even if you want to argue that the regular authorities are ill-equipped in cases like this, there are organizations in the MU set up just to deal with things like this that do have real authority under the law. The real question, therefore, is at what point does it become SHIELD's fault, or that of whatever organization takes its place.

[fifthie]

Death: surely the thing that will totally eliminate the threat of Green Goblin forever, also, ensure that nobody has to worry about him ever again.

Bendis, you airhead.

[fifthie]

If I had it handy I'd pretty much just reply to this with a scan of that page of Norman standing over his own grave.

[starwolf_oakley]

Some points:

When Voldemort wrote THE LAST AVENGERS STORY, its mentioned how the US Government rounded up most of the major super-villains and executed them all. The morality of the action was left up in the air.

The Illuminati are an example of Noblise Oblige which means "With great power comes great responsibility and a really smug sense of superiority."

T'Challa says it's "decided" the rest of the FF/Avengers/X-Men/Inhumans etc. don't deserve a place at the grown-ups table. Of course, when Cyclops got a place at the grown-ups table, his idea was a private assassination squad.

Namor says later in the book "King T'Challa was right too."

[jlbarnett]

here's an test to see if this works. A criminal gets out of a long sentence by turning over evidence of other crimes in a plea bargain. He goes out and commits another crime and does the same. He always avoids a full sentence due to plea bargains and good behavior and always goes back to crime.

At what point should a cop decide to take it out of the legal system/prison systems hands and just shoot the guy?

[fredneil.livejournal.com]

My take on Spider-Man not killing Osborn is that he'd enjoy it too much and he couldn't be sure whether he was doing it because it was the only way to keep people safe from him or if he was just going for revenge.

In other words, he's showing that superheros CAN be trusted not to abuse their powers and act as though they're above the law. He's living proof that the worst fears of the non-superpowered part of the Marvel Universe don't have to come true, and he's accused of being responsible for the Green Goblin because of it.

[proteus_lives]

If T'Challa's so smart, why won't he hand-out the cure to cancer? ;)