IVX #0

[flint_marko]

Later, Beast discovers something about the Terrigen but doesn't tell the Inhumans.

Comments

[mastermahan]

So, just to get this straight:

AvX:
Avengers: The Phoenix is killing people, and we want to stop it.
X-Men: No, because we want the Phoenix to give more people mutant powers.

IvX:
X-Men: The Terrigen Cloud is killing people, and we want to stop it.
Inhumans: No, because we want the Terrigen Cloud to give more people Inhuman powers.

[cyberghostface]

Was the Phoenix actually killing people or was that just the Avengers worried about the possibility?

Whereas the Terrigen Mist is actually killing people.

[obsidianwolf]

It had destroyed a few planets but instead of investigating why it was acting out of character the AVengers leaped to the decision that it would destroy Earth when Hope couldn't handle it and decided to take her. Meanwhile Cable had warned the X-men that if HOpe was taken by the avengers it would lead to a very bad future. It was why in the prelude storyline he was planning to murder the avengers until he was talked out of it.

Then instead of consulting the x-men's experience with the force they tried to blow it up which resulted in the same thing that happened the last time someone tried that. It broke into unstable pieces and caused trouble. Honestly the idiot balls were handed out like candy in that mini series with everyone acting stupid. The what if had them act more in character at first until it devolved into the usual Editorial was right see how much worse this one ended thing that all first generation what ifs of events tend to do.

[mastermahan]

Yes. The Phoenix was wiping out entire planets on its path to Earth. For example, the entire planet of Birj, Terrax's home world.

[cyberghostface]

But the difference is the X-Men had a plan to control the Phoenix once it arrived on Earth. An accurate comparison would be if the Phoenix was already *on* Earth and killing people and the X-Men were preventing any plans to destroy it because of its importance to them.

[mastermahan]

They were still risking the entire planet for the sake of their own demographic group. They had a plan to control Phoenix, yes, but they couldn't be certain it would work.

[obsidianwolf]

I'm not sure it is that clear cut since the x-men are pretty much the Earth experts on the phoenix and know from experience that trying to destroy it ends badly. It is also a cosmic force related to death and rebirth so making the leap that it would possibly save a dying species isn't that far fetched. There was also that early prelude story line that had Cable warning Cyclops that if the Avengers took Hope it would lead to a very bad future. Also Hope had manifested the force before A v X so if it wasn't for the massive idiot and conflict balls on both sides things could have gone a great deal better than they did.

On the other hand the Terrigen is not necessary for the inhumans to live they existed just fine before it was found and could survive without it. It also isn't a sapient cosmic force connected to life itself it is just a chemical cloud that is killing people. There will not potentially be cosmic repercussions for destroying it. The only repercussions would come from the inhumans themselves which is why the situations don't mesh.

[mastermahan]

The Phoenix wasn't necessary for mutants to live, only for more humans to become mutants. The key message of the X-Men franchise is that mutants are people too, and that humans and mutants aren't really that different. The people Phoenix mutated at the end were already living, thinking individuals - it just shifted them into a minority group, whether they wanted to be or not?

Suppose a cosmic event turned nearly everyone on Earth gay (or straight, or bi, or changed their race, gender, etc. Insert something that would affect you personally)? There's a cosmic entity coming that might restore the balance of sexual orientation, but it might also kill everyone on the planet, and it definitely *is* killing sentients on other planets? Is that really worth risking billions of human lives for?

[icon_uk]

Not really comparable I don't think.

Cyclops HOPED the Phoenix would restore mutants, he didn't know it for sure since no one could communicate with it.

He wanted the Phoenix to bond to a human, and if it could "fix" the x-gene, then so much the better.

We KNOW the Terrigen cloud kills mutants, that's just a flat out fact.

[mastermahan]

The Terrigen Cloud has killed and is killing people (mutants are people). The Phoenix was also killing people (sentient aliens are people).

It's hardly a strict one to one, but the base debate underlying both is whether powers and culture are worth the trade-off of lives.

[obsidianwolf]

I don't think so the X-men didn't say anything about mutating existing humans. I mean I don't recall the PHoenix Five doing that at all. The fact it happened at the end of A V X seemed to be a consequence of what Wanda and Hope did to get rid of the PHoenix. The x-men seemed to be counting on the phoenix undoing whatever Wanda did that was making it difficult for new mutants to be born. The fact Hope was showing signs of the force ever since she was a child and her presence started new mutants being born after M-day gave quite a bit of credence to the idea that it would fix things.

There's also the fact that the Phoenix is the equivelent of an act of god it was going to come to Earth no matter what. The X-men are the most informed about the phoenix of any group on Earth, having a living former host among their number, and having the word of Hope's time travelling dad that the avengers taking her means bad news. I mean both sides hugged the idiot balls hard in A v x but the avenger held them the hardest.

The terrigen situation is completely different the phoenix coming to Earth was not by the x-men's design, They didn't intentionally summon it to save mutant kind. It was coming and acting on the information that they had and experience they made their decisions about it. Was it right for them to risk the whole world probably not but the avengers solution was even more risky and directly led to the whole PHoenix five thing. It was a solution we'd seen before didn't work.

On the other hand the cloud was intentionally released for the purpose of mutating individuals against their will by the inhuman king. It is also demonstrably harmful and destroying it has no negative consequences except inhumans can't mutate themselves with it any more that's it that's the only consequence.

[bruinsfan]

Oh, but you forget the crucial difference: the Terrigen Cloud doesn't have a habit of blowing up planets and suns, so it doesn't pose a direct threat to the 7 billion baseline human lives the X-Men were handwaving away the risks to in AvX.

[flint_marko]

No, the terrigen mist is just sterilizing and killing an entire race of people. No biggie.

[scorntx]

See, it's a good thing they removed the fact that Terrigen exposure also kills humans, in an incredibly slow and painful fashion.
Otherwise, the Inhumans would look, I dunno, like terrible people for not trying to do something about it.

[mastermahan]

Yeah, that's one big place where the events are different. AvX ignored continuity to make the Phoenix less safe and less controllable - Rachel had the Phoenix for years without going nuts. Terrigen is now safer than it used to be.

[icon_uk]

How did they remove it? We know it was killing humans before through failed/nonviable Terrigenesis. That's not something that can just be undone, is it?

[deh_tommy]

I thought, given the scans above and the actual events in the Inhumans books, the Inhumans ARE doing things sbout the Mists?

[mastermahan]

Exactly. The Terrigen Cloud is empowering Inhumans at the cost of sterilizing and killing people, and so it clearly has to be stopped.

The Phoenix was killing people on its path to Earth. Entire species.

[flint_marko]

Did the Phoenix destroy any planets after the X men and avengers found out about it?

[icon_uk]

It was heading to the only planet in all of space and time where the Phoenix has successfully bonded with a host (Rachel) and been an active source for good, saving reality a couple of times.

The Phoneix heading TOWARDS Earth is significantly less of a risk than the Phonenix heading AWAY from Earth.

Meanwhile the Terrigen cloud IS actively killing thousands of not-Kree-enough humans and mutants

[obsidianwolf]

Not to mention that the phoenix has alwasy been at its most unstable when not bonded to a host. If anything letting hope bond with it was the sanest idea of them all. I Mean even if she couldn't handle it we have seen repeatedly that it is far easier to fight a phoenix host that it is the force itself since even if you manage to hurt it it just scatters into confused unstable pieces that tend to stalk Scott Summers.

I mean really what were hte options.

1. Stop the phoenix from reaching Earth. That wasn't going to happen they failed in the attempts as experience had shown would happen.

2. Stop it bonding with Hope. That again creates the problem of how do you do it, Kill her, that wouldn't stop the phoenix if it really wanted her and then you'd have zombie phoenix Hope to deal with. Probably pissed off at getting murdered.

3. Let it bond with her and do your best to deal with the fall out. Frankly given the phoenix is at its most reasonable and easiest to directly harm when in a human host. It seems to be the best options.

4. Try to blow it out of the sky which the avengers did and the result was the phoenix five which as bad as they were could have been so much worse. Imagine a world where they bonded with someone like Exodus, Apocalypse or any of a dozen other folks who would use that power to try to turn the world into a nightmare instead of a utopia.

[q99]

Handwaving? They had a host ready. It'd been on Earth before. They had a history with it's behavior in both destructive *and* heroic modes.

[bruinsfan]

Pity the X-Men themselves never seemed to remember that or bring the point up in any of their arguments with the Avengers. Did Rachel Summers even appear in the crossover?

[flint_marko]

Yes, she appeared in Wolverine and the X-Men, where she sided with Cyclops. Captain Britain and Beast also discussed her history with the Phoenix in Secret Avengers.

[q99]

She did, she just didn't do much.