Superman versus Wonder Woman : The Sacrifice Part 4 of 4

[lucky_gamble]

Over a storyline spanning several issues, it's revealed that Maxwell Lord has been taking over Superman's mind (it took him several years to achieve that). The result has made Superman highly suggestive, which ends with Clark taking out the whole Justice League sans-Wonder Woman. The actual story isn't that great but the climax is rather amazing. The following pages only show half of the WWvsSupes fight.





















We all know what Wonder Woman did next. Damn page limits =(

Comments

[nyadnar17]

Should have just stripped Max of his damn powers. Not that I have a problem with the morality of WW's choice, it was just a bad tactical move.


Also when Max came back from the dead or whatever why didn't he go right back to mind raping Superman into being his puppet again?

[skjam]

By the time Max came back from the dead, he realized that Superman would have had the good sense to put blocks in against the stuff Max did, and it would take years again to get Big Blue under his control. Besides, by then the truth had gotten out, making it difficult for Max to get in range for the effect to work.

So he came up with the "brainwash the entire world including people who should be immune so I can play games with the JLI" plan.

[shingi70]

That's why I like Wonder Woman. She's not a boy scout like superman and she doesn't get off on the chase like Batman does.


Instead of waiting around for the bad guy to make an elaborate super death trap that results in the deaths of thousands. Cripple or Kill.

[theflames]

Ditto.

[theflames]

Ugh, I love Wonder Woman, so pragmatic.

When Superman got in a judgey rage about what she did afterwards I was so mad. It was the immediately smart, hell, right thing to do.

It really isn't a superheroes job to protect their morals when people are in danger, they have a responsibility to have an appropriate response to the appropriate situation. A 100% no kill no matter the situation rule is terribly stupid *considering* the people they fight, if it was just non-superpowered humans, it'd be fair game.

[mrstatham]

A superhero's morals get ridiculous, as so many people keep pointing out, when they refuse to find a permanent solution to something that threatens thousands. The Joker is a perfect example; Batman condemns the next dozen people the Joker kills to death himself because he refuses to do something more than place the Joker in the confines of a system that doesn't work. The whole 'slippery slope' thing is just complete nonsense.

[q99]

I like it with WW because she *is* a diplomat, in most situation she tries *harder* to reach out and redeem villains than Superman or Bruce, she actually has a pretty good track record at it, it's just that she's also willing to make a call if it'll save lives.

It was a dividing point among the team, but much less of one with the fans or, heck, the DC general public judging by her trial over in Manhunter.

[mrstatham]

This is where I start to fail to understand precisely what problem people have with the supposedly more 'aggressive' approach Azzarello has Diana taking. Because the only people she's beaten up and gotten violent with during his run are undead monsters and gods who've actively provoked her and threatened her friends. Some people talk about the older incarnation of the character as though she never used to solve anything with a fight, and I think the whole thing with the New52 has made them put the blinkers on when it comes to how compassionate Azzarello's take can be.

As for this issue itself? I never saw the problem. She's not as ridiculously naive as Batman or Superman, but it did get absolutely ridiculous when - surprise surprise, under Johns' pen - she tried EXACTLY the same neckbreaker move on Mongul, from what I recall.

[q99]

I have problems with Azzarello's WW, but *not* for the aggressive part, as you say.

-As for this issue itself? I never saw the problem. She's not as ridiculously naive as Batman or Superman, but it did get absolutely ridiculous when - surprise surprise, under Johns' pen - she tried EXACTLY the same neckbreaker move on Mongul, from what I recall.-

She did? Which story was that from?

Oh yea, and she killed a monstrous 'Cain' in Secret Six.

[freezer]

Batman's not naive, just slavishly devoted to his "thou shalt not kill" ideals and takes a dim view of anyone who falls short of that standard, no matter what. That's why I had no problem with Bats souring on Diana in the aftermath of this. Being a judgmental dick is what he does.

What I had a problem with is Superman and the entire world turning on her. Supes was at ground zero for this (Hell, he was ground zero). He knew the choice Diana was up against and he still gave her shit for it, as if she took the "easy" way. And for a world that near-universally loved her to near-universally hate her? Nobody giving her the benefit of the doubt? Bullshit on that.

Mod Note

[icon_uk]

Quick request, could you make the image above the cut a smidgin smaller please, our limit is 400x300

Re: Mod Note

[lucky_gamble]

Done and done, sir.

Re: Mod Note

[superfangirl1]

I have a question for you icon_uk. but don't know where to ask.

[janegray]

The only reason I disapprove of this is that Max was a perfectly good character before editorial decided to character assassinate him and turn him into a villain.

[wake_the_dragon]

It always sucks when it's decided that characters should be turned evil for no reason, like Max and Cassandra Cain.

Also, with Max, didn't the Martian Manhunter read his mind while he was unconsious? How could he have missed the evil that was retconned in there?

[wake_the_dragon]

I never got what the big deal was. Yes, she killed Max but she didn't do it for the hell of it. He had complete control over Superman and would have taken him over again as soon as Dianna released him from the lasso.

Of course super-heroes shouldn't use lethal force all the time but this? It was the right thing to do at the time.

[aravis]

Except they would have had ample time to find another solution. Preferably one that didn't involve Diana deciding she is Judge, Jury and Executioner.

[lorriek]

I still resent the destruction of Max's character, but WW made the correct decision to kill him. The way other characters reacted was ridiculous.

[skemono]

I love Max's expression on the middle panel of the penultimate page. Max is gloating about his evil plans, Superman is jetting towards them, and Wonder Woman just casually--with almost bored disdain--stops Superman by cutting his throat with her tiara. Max is all, "Well. Did not see that one coming."

[big_daddy_d]

This is actually one of my all time favorite fights in comics. WW kicked ass and honestly I was glad she made sure Max Lord knew what his own ass looked like.

[q99]

Yea. She actually *beats Superman*. A Superman who was actually fighting fairly smart no less, just too aggressively, so she punishes him for it until she can shut Max down.

[silverhammerman]

Out of curiosity did Supes have to seek medical attention for his throat, or does he also heal? I feel like I should know this, but given the character's invulnerability this stuff doesn't actually seem to come up that often.

[superfangirl1]

Superman wound heal by itself seconds after wonder woman killed max.

[lieut_kettch]

And if anyone still doesn't know what happens next:

[arrogantcur.livejournal.com]

I do not react well to people saying this is awesome. Right now I'm having to keep looking at the neck-snap gif as I type this, and I feel disgusted. Some...person...thought that it was a good idea to turn Wonder Woman into Wolverine with a lasso, and this was the result.

Killing Lord was not the only option, and rather than explore alternatives Wondy just went "Kill you? Okay." *KRK*

I think the fucking casual way she does it is part of what gets to me, like it's no big deal. You just murdered a man, for fuck's sake.

Back when I first had a discussion on this, on the "You'll All Be Sorry" board at CBR years ago, I said that Wondy could have just knocked Lord out cold.

Here's how the conversation went from that point on, as best as I can recall:

"The problem with that is that Lord would eventually wake up, and once he did then Superman would start rampaging again."

"Well then, keep him sedated and unconscious 24/7 until you can find a way to break his hold over Supes. Or fucking depower him somehow--the DCU has somebody or something that can remove people's powers, right? And what's the range of Lord's mind control? If he were left with the Oans, could he still control Superman despite not being on Earth any more?"

My point is the "seconds to act" argument does not fly in my opinion because you don't need to think very long to come up with "I'm gonna punch this guy really hard." And that the "killing him was the only option" argument doesn't fly because if people had just put some thought into it, there were any number of ways to neutralize Lord as a threat. Or, failing that, there are ways to neutralize Superman as a threat, the most obvious of which begins with a "K".

Her willingness to kill in cold blood and in battle makes her Wolverine with a lasso because one of the things that makes Wolverine Wolverine is that he just does not care all that much if somebody he's fighting dies, or if the most efficient way of dealing with a problem involves him stabbing somebody to death. In that respect this version of Wondy is similar; both characters would say "I did what had to be done" and have no regrets.

Both characters are also not above using torture. Wolverine's history with that practice is well-documented, and during Simone's run on WW, Wondy lost her lasso and needed information, so she decided to torture Cheetah until Cheetah talked.

(Stuff like that, combined with Gail writing Wondy as ridiculously powerful and nigh-unbeatable even by the strongest entities in the DCU--don't get me started on the way Ares died, because that's a whole separate rant--is why I finally dropped the book and, later, just gave up on Gail as a creator.)

Call me a judgmental dick like Batman if you want, but there are certain lines I don't want a character to cross if I'm going to read a comic book about them.

People talk about Wonder Woman being a "soldier" and a "warrior", terms like that. That...doesn't make me view her in a more favourable light.

See, I can root for a superhero, because I imagine a superhero as somebody who saves people. A superhero's job, when you come right down to it, is the same as that of a first responder. First responders save lives instead of taking them. Even police are getting access to non-lethal ways of taking down violent criminals now. (And while some of them do abuse those tools, as we know, at least a taser is less likely to kill you than a bullet.)

A soldier is a trained killer. Their job, during conflicts, is to kill people on the other side until the end of the conflict.

No disrespect intended to anybody who's been in the armed forces, but I don't want to read a comic book about a soldier.

[mrstatham]

Except she IS a soldier. That's part of the balance of her character and it doesn't particularly matter whether that makes you view her in a more or less favourable light - That IS part of her character. You're also tapping into entirely separate areas with the notion of Diana torturing the Cheetah for information, because that's an entirely different creator with a different perspective - regardless of the fact that Wonder Woman IS meant to be ridiculously powerful and this often gets ignored to make Superman in particular look better.

I'd also argue about just how 'casual' she is in doing what she does. Certainly, she's expressionless when it comes to breaking his neck, but I'd rather have something neutral than anything that could be remotely misconstrued as her taking joy in murdering Lord. Also, if you think the killing of one person - a villain who promised to keep doing what he was doing again and again and proved the necessity of his being killed when he came back and started fucking around again - turns Wonder Woman into WOLVERINE, of all characters, then to me any validity your argument has falls apart. Because there is SO much difference. Does shooting Darkseid turn Batman into Wolverine?

[md84]

Props to Wonder Woman for incapacitating Superman when he sincerely believes she's a rampaging Doomsday who just murdered Lois. It's not even that unbelievable -- all of her equipment is magical and Supes is vulnerable to magic.

[theflames]

People who reference that Superman 'What's So funny about truth, justice and the American way?" story (gross title btw) as to why WW is wrong for doing what she's doing.

Nah, that story looses a lot of points simply because it can only present itself as being right when it uses the most *extreme* version of characters who kill, to oppose Superman.

Try, try and apply that story to Wonder Woman as a character opposing Superman and it falls to pieces. Because she isn't killing just because, or approaching every situation with the same intent. Unlike Batman and apparently Superman, she knows herself, she has self control, she'll kill, but won't start breaking every threats necks after.

Also... with the history of the character... why do people act like this is the first time she's ever done this, like she took the decision lightly?

And finally, with this legal system talk, if the villain CAN be handled by the legal system, then the legal system will handle them.

But what about Doomsday?
Darkseid?
Lord? (who can't sit a trial because he'd have to be conscious and we all know what he can do when he's conscious. And if he doesn't have a trial, then that's not really the legal system is it.)

And hell, the Joker. Who the legal system simply can't handle.

[aravis]

"What's So Funny..." Doesn't use the most extreme version of characters who kill; it just shows where that would, logically, end. Some people who reviewed the animated movie said they thought it odd how The Elite turned into villains during the last 15 minutes. That's pretty baffling...

""And hell, the Joker. Who the legal system simply can't handle."

...in Comic Book land. because, THAT IS NOT HOW AN INSANITY PLEA WORKS! (About just about every single time that's happened)

[flash_fan]

I for one will never give Wonder Woman shit for killing Max Lord. It'd be different if she had that punisher mentality but she really doesn't. She understands and respects life and kills rarely and consciously. She's the most mentally balanced of the Trinity. That being said it would of been OOC for Batman not to be upset by the situation. I didn't like Superman's reaction though.

[wake_the_dragon]

Yeah, Batman's reaction didn't really annoy me either. He's just holding Dianna to the standards he holds himself to.