turtlefu: (Default)
[personal profile] turtlefu posting in [community profile] scans_daily

I am back! This day had probably one of the worst moments at the con, but it did have some good news. Also, we had one panel where DC DIDN'T brag about diversity! Too bad it was the Green Lantern Panel. But first, legality!



DC’s ‘The New 52’ Panel (Friday Morning)

Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

“Aaaaaand, right away, equating wives as prizes for their husbands. Also, NOBODY LIKES angst-y Clark!”

DiDio says that they de-aged characters because they had already “matured” and wanted the characters to be able to grow and self-discover, etc. He thinks that Oracle was in her mid- to late-30’s.

“DC doesn’t understand at all. I for one, LOVE Oracle BECAUSE she has grown and matured and developed. Apparently, people older than 35 aren’t interesting. I guess that means most of the DC staff isn’t interesting? Oh, that’s right, so it must be true.”

DiDio reiterates that Stephanie is going to come back. Also, Berganza (Ex. Editor) says that Oracle was a “big decision” but to have confidence in Gail. Also, there isn’t going to be a magic handwave.

“Yes, that would be nice. Too bad I don’t believe them one bit. With the compressed timeline, new younger Barbara, and the implication that her recovery won’t be instant, it looks like the Oracle character is going to be significantly truncated and changed

Jim Lee implies that Wonder Woman won’t be single.

“This can go both ways. It can show a Woman in a happy stable relationship where she is equal with her partner. OR, they can go the Classic/Heinberg route and hitch her up with a complete jerk!”


DC’s Superman Panel (Friday Afternoon)

JMS is running with the “Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue” idea in his next Earth-1 OGN. The woman will be okay with Clark being naked

“I wish somebody would retire that misogynistic idea. On the other hand, I wish they would portray women as more well-rounded than the Madonna-Whore complex towards sex, and I think showing a woman as wanting sex but not being consumed by it is the right direction.”

Johnson describes Supergirl as kind and funny and smart, but untrusting and in a backwards civilization.

“Okay, that sounds pretty good to me


DC’s Justice League Panel (Friday Later Afternoon)

Johns says that by having J’onn on the JLA, there is redundancy because Clark is already an alien.

“This shows exactly DC’s attitudes towards diversity. It’s all about quotas and tokenism.”

Wallace says that Terrific’s supporting cast will be very racially diverse. He says he wants his writing to reflect the real world.

“Well, good on you, but I still don’t like your writing. Also, I think it’s important to add that Wallace is one of (the only?) black creator for the new 52

Lee implies that the Atom is Ryan Choi when asked about diversity in the JLA.

“See, I love Ryan, but I feel like they only chose him over Ray because Ryan fulfills their Asian diversity quota”

Johns says Power Girl is still around, Wallace implies we’ll see Karen Starr in Mr. Terrific. Philip Tan says he can’t say whether Hawkgirl is still around. Berganza says “never say never” to Secret Six returning.

“Mostly good news, but now for the really bad part!”

A female fan in a Batgirl costume says she is upset about how the female character are not featured centrally in the Justice League books. The panelists say they are taking diversity “seriously”. Then they got into a little argument with the fan disagreeing. Lee mocks her by asking if she wants female characters to be “dead center or off-center” on the covers. According to the report, the audience was definitely against her.

“DC says they are taking diversity seriously, and then proceeds to use their male privilege to mock a fan who is rightfully upset about their hypocrisy. Furthermore, the audience, who is likely mostly male, is against her voicing her concerns. However, I applaud her for her bravery and courage. We need more people like her in the business. It reminds me of what Gail was before she sold-out. And she's completely right, because there used to be a time when we had a "Trinity" with Wonder Woman, Superman, and Batman as the Big Three. It seems to me that GL has now taken that position and Wonder Woman is going to be less important in the team books. It's also funny how the League supposedly has several heroines as members but only Wonder Woman shows up on the cover. And even in JLI, the guys are clearly larger/closer to the foreground and more central than Ice, Vixen, or Fire.”

DC’s Green Lantern panel had no talking about heroines or diversity

Date: 2011-07-26 03:02 pm (UTC)
kaete: pixie (Default)
From: [personal profile] kaete
I've been mostly fine to ambivalent about the partial reboot, but the "trophy wife" comment still seriously tempts me to ignore DC comics for a while.

Women are being attacked and pushed to the side enough in the real world right now, I'm not sure I need the reminder of that backsliding status in my comics as well.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:17 pm (UTC)
minyandu: "I made this!" (Default)
From: [personal profile] minyandu
Wow, they really need some P.R. help in this panel thing.

And, just see it on Tumblr, and I just don't get their BREAK DICK GRAYSON DOWN idea.
It sounds so wrong in a strange way...:/

Date: 2011-07-26 03:23 pm (UTC)
airawyn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] airawyn
Also, there isn’t going to be a magic handwave.

I keep feeling the urge to quote Arthur C. Clarke at these people when they say that.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:25 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Lora, crafting. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Futuretech company, genius intern, "Good thing he invented infinite fractal mechanics".. Mister Terrific sounds like it'll be one gloriously technobabble filled book.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:40 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
If I can be honest... I would like for comic books to be more diverse, but more often than not, I believe that it is a losing battle. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since it's coming from someone who, while neither straight nor white, enjoys the so-called male privilege.

The reason why DC is dominated by white male heroes is because their heroes were long established in a very white male dominated era, and the ones who are the most popular now are the most enduring ones. So of course when we're talking about central/iconic/deserving heroes, it's going to be mostly white males with little room left over for newer, more diverse characters. The reason why they keep going back to the same handful of white male characters is because they're the ones fans latch onto the most, no matter what the vocal fans say differently.

I talked to Bruce Timm at this year's Con, and he pretty much said that even the DC direct-to-video stuff will always be Batman and Superman oriented, because the other stuff just don't sell. Hell, they're even discontinuing the animated shorts because they haven't helped sales at all, and the DC Showcase DVD tanked horribly. Timm seems to have given up hope.

What was that thing where one writer leaked a DC bullpen meeting and saying that the staff at DC are far less misogynistic, racist or LGBT-friendly than their books suggest, purely because they don't have confidence that the market match their personal progressiveness? I really do think that's the bigger problem than the fact that the creators being idiots. They look at the numbers and see that their misogynistic, white male dominated books sell like porn on hotcakes, and they lose their balls.

The fact that the female fan got booed by the crowd was telling.

Date: 2011-07-26 04:35 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
Well, because I can't find anything positive to say, and I did promise not to use CornetteFace on anything I couldn't say anything positive about AT ALL, here's my reaction to this set of panels:

(All credit to Seanbaby for the image; here's hoping it works.)

Date: 2011-07-26 05:37 pm (UTC)
elita_5: Applejack the handypony (Default)
From: [personal profile] elita_5
Wait...J'onn J'onzz and Clark Kent on one team is REDUNDANT? Can Clark change his face and faze through a wall? Was he forced to watch his brother destroy his entire race? DOES HE LIKE OREOS?!

Just because two characters have similar premises (last of their kind) doesn't mean they can't coexist! J'onn has a LOT of baggage that Clark shouldn't

Personally? I think that the best part of the JLA cartoon was seeing Clark help J'onn!

That version of J'onn wanted to connect, but had SO much trouble. That version of Clark was normal and well adjusted and Clark reached out and said:

"You seem lonely. Would you like to go home with me for Christmas? Mom made you a sweater!!!"

THAT is why Clark and J'onn should be buds!

My point is basically: 1) Don't make Clark a brooder, because he doesn't need the baggage. 2) J'onn already HAS some of that baggage and you can play with THAT if you want and 3) Do NOT separate them for such a stupid reason! They're similar enough to understand each other, but different enough that it isn't fully. Keeping them on the same team has AWESOME storytelling possibilities.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:16 pm (UTC)
sherkahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sherkahn
Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

I get it. We're getting Superboy Prime instead of Clark.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:20 pm (UTC)
detective_deathman08: (Default)
From: [personal profile] detective_deathman08
Ok I am worried about that Wonder Women, part like you said I hope she does not get stuck with a jerk. Hmmm I also wanted to comment on the lack of strong women thing at DC. A lot of writers really have trouble tackling them. I do not mean in fight scenes, but I am talking about in regular situations and disagreements.

A commend trend I am noticing is when a dc female gets into a heated disagreement, they have a tendency to show her getting flustered and extremly over emotional. I saw old teen titans scans someone posted here of Donna Troy in a heated argument with Dick. The scans were supposed to paint her in a positive light sticking up for herself. Dick was calling her out on something and being extremly blunt. Instead of calmly talking, or keeping her composure as she yelled she broke down in tears and pushed him through a wall.

The same thing with non super powered women, Barbara Gordon's den mothering and controlling almost antisocial tendencies really paint her in a bad light sometimes like when she first met jaime. Maybe because I am a guy and do not really know if it is my place to say when a women is being strong or not, but then I see characters like Wonder Women and Amanda Waller who can be stern and yell when they have to but always keep their composure.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:26 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] capnduckman
So, I get the rest of it, but hos is 'Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex' misogynistic? I've always just thought it was kind of, well, realisitic, for a given value of real.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:41 pm (UTC)
practicalcat: Cropped panel of Kid Eternity as Tula (Aquagirl I) walloping Brother Blood (Tula disapproves)
From: [personal profile] practicalcat
If Clark and J'onn can't be on the same team because of "redundancy", Batman shouldn't be in the JLI. After all, we've already got a non-powered Gothamite with gadgets on the team in Booster Gold!

Ugh. Every time the people at DC open their mouths, I am more and more pleased that I have ceased giving them my money.

Date: 2011-07-26 06:54 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
JMS is running with the “Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue” idea in his next Earth-1 OGN.

It's lazy, creatively bankrupt, self-indulgent and creepily obsessive. What's not to love?

Date: 2011-07-26 06:54 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
a beautiful wife

Literally the only things Lee comprehends about Lois Lane as a character: beautiful; is/isn't wife.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
It sounds weird, but I am terribly disappointed that Eric Wallace is Black.

I hate the fact that whenever the Big 2 wants to feature a Black protagonist, its obvious editorial says "HIRE A BLACK GUY TO WRITE IT!!!" instead of y'know challenging their "talented stable" of non black writers to write outside of what they know. Yet they have no problem asking Black creators to work on non-black characters.

Date: 2011-07-26 07:12 pm (UTC)
webbgirl: (DW_peekaboo)
From: [personal profile] webbgirl
I was at Comic Con but purposely chose to save my blood pressure and skip the DC panels this year, especially after Didio's interview comment about Barbara always being the "strongest" Batgirl. God forbid they actually acknowledge more than one strong female in a role.

My takeaway from the recaps:

Male character with a wife is uninteresting.
Anyone over 30 is uninteresting.
A female character with a male companion (Wonder Woman) evidently *is* interesting. Having more than one character who is not a white male from earth on any given book is "redundant".

Date: 2011-07-26 07:18 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Things to point out that you left out (but which other people have already mentioned):

1) The woman who was there questioning about women's roles was with HER DAUGHTER (dressed as Raven from TTG) when she was being mocked by all these middle-aged males. Way to poison their future fan base by literally insulting a girl's mother because she dares to ask a legitimate question - although maybe Didio/Lee don't count young girls as potential readers anyway so it doesn't matter to them.

2) Idelson's Lois as a "trophy wife" comment. I can't believe that NO ONE who was sitting at a Superman panel said anything to him about it. But then gain I'm not surprised - I think we're really seeing now the underbelly of loathing for Lois by the people that run Superman that I used to think only Chuck "Lois is a Gold Digger" Austen (hired by Eddie Berganza and only fired under fan pressure) used to represent. From releasing those two pages of the VERY FIRST ISSUE of the new Superman showing pining Clark and Lois celebrating a story by getting it on with her "hunky co-worker" (as DC's own press release call him) to Jim Lee explicitly saying they want the reader to feel "sympathy" for Clark in that situation (even though the two have not even dated in this reboot) to moving Lois from an intrepid reporter to a desk job where she delegates authority to others. They are pretty much deconstructing the Siegel/Shuster Lois from the ground up (and less than a year after Joanne Siegel, the model for LL, passed on) and all for the sake of making CLARK look better. Can they get any more tasteless and sexist?
Also, Idelson has also been the editor for the Superman books for several years now (many of which have had Lois/Clark separated for flimsy purposes like the whole Grounded debacle) so its revealing to see how the man who edits Superman himself has seen Lois all this time they've been married.

3) They haven't said Power Girl will be in the reboot (that I've heard) only Karen Starr (and she will working FOR Mr. Terrific, who Wallace calls one of the most "elgible bachelors in the world" - joining the ranks of rebooted bachelors pining angsty Clark Kent and "dating around" Barry Allen). I wouldn't be surprised if they reboot Power Girl's origin by having her develop powers thanks to Mr. Terrific, instead of being a Superman-level hero without help.

4) Berganza says Oracle was a "big decision" (and one they didn't choose easily - which is dishonest since we all know Didio has been wanting a return to Babsgirl for YEARS) and to "trust Gail Simone". The very same Gail Simone who has already publicly stated that she only went on the book because DC was going to do this (de-age and un-disable Babs) ANYWAY and she was presented with a fait accompli. I wonder what Berganza would have said if Gail wasn't on the book (and had refused the assignment) since it seems to be that a lot of DC's ploy with the Babs back as Batgirl reboot has been to rely on reader confidence and personal liking/trust of Gail Simone. They had already decided the direction they were going to go in, with or without Gail so what if they had given the book say to Eric "Titans" Wallace or JT "Rise of Arsenal" Krul? What then?

Seems to me that the DC Higher-Ups (minus Diane Nelson) seem to be coming out of this reboot and Comic-Com as supremely arrogant and condescending (even more so than they ever were before)...and none of them seem to realize it (and if they do they don't seem to care). How do you run a business with such an attitude towards your own consumers?

Date: 2011-07-26 07:57 pm (UTC)
bluefall: (amazon queen)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
Jim Lee implies that Wonder Woman won’t be single.

Goodbye, Diana. You were a Wonder while you lasted, and I'll always remember you in my heart.

*gives crossed-wrist Amazon salute*

Date: 2011-07-26 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.

Huh. Now, if I wanted to communicate that idea, I'd probably focus on illustrating how Superman wants more than just a wife what is hot. (Or even--shock!--a wife what is smart, brave, confident, successful and kind.) Maybe show how Superman wishes for universal peace and happiness, and the reformation of criminals like Luthor, and the impossible survival of his fellow Kryptonians. In fact, I could have sworn that a lot of writers have shown Superman having lofty, challenging goals like that.

But I guess you could also go this path and make Superman's new life goal getting into a hot girl's pants. That's character evolution, kind of.

Johns says that by having J’onn on the JLA, there is redundancy because Clark is already an alien.

Clark, even nuClark, is a biologically alien Kansas farm boy. J'onn actually grew up in and became an established, successful member of an alien culture, with a duty and a family, and then was ripped away from everything and everyone he knew.

It's a bit troubling that a writer of science-fictiony comics would consider these two characters redundant.

Date: 2011-07-26 09:56 pm (UTC)
shadeedge: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadeedge
I find myself thinking bullshit on the earlier point where Didio challenged questioners as to which black or female writers/artists/creative types they'd like to have working for them.

I mean, in the first place, in order to get the kind of name recognition that would require means having worked for one of the larger companies in the first place. It seems like a self-defeating principle - if you want non-white male creatives, you need to be able to say who you want; in order to say who you want, you have to be aware of their work.

If media-wide the comics industry has a very low ratio of non-white male creatives, which they do, then logically there's not going to be many someone could name off the top of their heads, because there aren't many people in those positions. It's a vicious cycle, and either a poor or a disingenuous question to pose (i'd probably just guess poor).

Date: 2011-07-26 10:44 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
when are they going to take away Bruce Wayne's money. It makes things to easy for him.

Date: 2011-07-26 11:15 pm (UTC)
salad_barbarian: K-ON girl (Fan sparkle)
From: [personal profile] salad_barbarian
Jim Lee implies that Wonder Woman won’t be single.

Did DC get the rights to Captain America/Steve Rogers?

*holds tight to his blue lantern ring*

Date: 2011-07-26 11:24 pm (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Lex Luthor)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
Jim Lee implies that Wonder Woman won’t be single.

People I ship WW with: Artemis, Io, Batman. There you go. Otherwise, most love interest they tend to set her up with just..never interests me. They never make me care. That includes Steve Trevor, even though I liked him in the animated film, but still a bit iffy about him being love interest material. Gotta sell me. And don't get me started on Superman/WW. Also good god, no more shipping of WW/Aquaman. Guy is married for god's sake. So if they're not gonna do it right, I'd rather keep her single.

A female fan in a Batgirl costume says she is upset about how the female character are not featured centrally in the Justice League books. The panelists say they are taking diversity “seriously”. Then they got into a little argument with the fan disagreeing. Lee mocks her by asking if she wants female characters to be “dead center or off-center” on the covers. According to the report, the audience was definitely against her.

When Lois was referred to as a trophy wife, I pointed out how some of the fans actually nodded in agreement. Then when I read this...all I can think is...my worst fear of this reboot has come to fruition...fans who actually like the stupid shit. I mean...what the hell fans? So you agree that Lois Lane is a trophy wife? Don't like that someone is willing to speak out against your beloved company in regards to the treatment of women as well as diversity?

Sometimes creators get too much of the credit when there are certain groups of fans who put ammo in the gun. What's sad is..this represents how the creators have such egos that instead of taking criticisms, taking into account the shit that fans don't like, and admitting to their mistakes, they rather listen to those who are onboard with their stupid ass decisions as justification. They will look for any small excuse to justify the stupid and thus keep it around.

Date: 2011-07-27 01:00 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] terabient
Lee says that having a beautiful wife made it too easy for Superman, and they wanted to restore the idea that Superman can’t get everything that he wants.


You know why I like Superman, DC? You know who my favorite comic book character ever is? It's Lois fuckin' Lane, because she's *awesome* all on her own. She's a Pulitzer prize winning journalist, people give her respect because she demands and deserves it, her husband adores her and will never cheat on her and is also a superpowered boy scout at his other job, hell, even her IN-LAWS are cool. Fuck Superman-as-wish-fulfillment, Lois Lane is MY wish fulfillment, the character who inspires me, the character I admire and want to be like.

But DC doesn't care about all of that, now. Never mind that Lois has just as much history, is just as important to the Superman mythos as Clark/Superman is himself, is a character who has her own stories to tell. DC sees Lois as a Nice Thing For Clark to Have. Lois' relationships with other men aren't being portrayed as character development for her - they exist to stab Clark in the heart in a misguided attempt to make him 'sympathetic' and 'relatable.'

Great job at turning one of your legacy characters into a 'trophy,' DC!

Date: 2011-07-27 06:00 am (UTC)
blackruzsa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blackruzsa
The way this is going, I got a vivid image of S_D banning most DC comics for the misogyny.

In that line of thought, I read through almost every Marvel comic in our library so I decided, "Hey, maybe I'll try DC".

I did, and, well, one of them was kind of....
Let me just say if it wasn't a library book, I'd have burned it. The way they treated women in it was sickening.

I know not all of DC does that, but I fear opening any DC comic for any surprise misogyny attacks.


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